[jackman]

Hi Hifial,

I wasn't saying the cases contributed to the high cost of many of the OEM NCore "repackagers", it was merely a light hearted comment, a reference to the high prices these guys are slapping on their amps which, as far as I can tell, are repackaged, standard 1200 series amp modules and PS's.  No doubt they sound better than the DIY versions but they ought to, given the price.  Perhaps some manufacturers use the fancy cases as a way to justify the price of these amps.  It's good to see TRL (they might want to think of a new name becasuse there are no tubes in this one) is offering a version that is a good bargain. 

I hope lots of manufacturers jump on this technology because we need some competition in this segment.  If these guys are simply repackaging amp modules and Hypex PS's, maybe someone will come out with an even more modest (translation: inexpensive) version in a simple steel or aluminum case.  CNC looks cool but it doesn't make this stuff sound better.  I'd rather have the option of spending money on thing that make the product sound better, versus fancy cases to impress my audiogeek friends. 

It would be awesome if a company like Sony liscensed this technology, put the modules in modest cases and offered the amps for under $4K/pair (or stereo single unit).  I could live without the case jewelry, but commend the guys at TRL for jumping on the bandwagon and offering these amps at a better price than the competition.  The gold anodized look of the TRL reminds me of the stuff we put on our mountain bikes in the 90's (remember Kooka, Ringle, Kore, etc.).    Cool look, they also remind me of gold bars! 


Cheers,

J

[medium jim]

Part of the problem in the hobby is the well heeled who can afford the buy in of anything waived in front of them and the repackager's and otherwise capitalize on their deep pockets and fat wallets.  Others mistake the price tag as proof that it must be this it that. 

I agree with Jackman, it would be nice if a well respected company stepped in and offered the technology at fair prices.   But in the meantime, the savvy buyer will let the well heeled have their folly and wait for them on the used market. No warranty, trial period, rather market adjusted reality check prices.

Jim

[Regnad]

Does anyone know (or have a good idea) of what Hypex charges OEMs for the 1200s?   Are they allowed to dictate the OEM minimum price?

[hifial]

How is TRL price of $9,000 a bargain? Merrill Audio amps until recently sold for the same price and Acoustic Imagery is asking the same($9,000). Obviously one of them has enough orders to have been able to raise the price.
Why are these prices not fair? How would anyone but the OEM know. And what happened to capitalism? The market will decide what is fair. Check Regnad post and figure it out. I will not comment.
Do you not see a pattern here. Theta Digital, if they ever release it, announced a price of $11,000.

As for Fancy Cases, what is so fancy? Have you seen the Ayre Amps, or D’Agostino amps etc?

And yes the NC1200 sounds better then the NC400. I have heard both. And I know others who have heard both and agree.

And you can forget Sony or another big name coming out with NC1200 mass market under $4,000 amps. Not based on the NC1200. Not anywhere near $4,000.

I also disagree that there is no benefit to the sound from the cases. Anything that can reduce micro vibrations will help at this level. If it is done right.

By the way Jackman, the TRL amps are more orange then gold in person.

[Julf]

Anything that can reduce micro vibrations will help at this level. If it is done right.

I would love to see a proper engineering analysis of the audibility of the effect of "micro vibrations" on modern surface mounted circuits. I have seen a bunch of studies, mainly in the automotive and aerospace industries, but they usually talk about severe vibrations - and show how little effect even several G has.

I'd be curious to hear your rationale for why reducing "micro vibrations" would make any difference in a modern solid state amp, with properly potted coils and transformers, smallish caps and no bending of wires/cables.

[cujobob]

A company can make solid cases to minimize vibrations for very little. There are some incredibly solid DIY cases out there. Pricing in high - end audio is outrageous but almost necessary for many manufacturers to stay in business. The fact is, in niche markets...there are two extremes. Companies trying to bring the niche into the mainstream and then there are those who capitalize on the wealth and ignorance of the few within the niche.

[OzarkTom]

For vibration absorbtion, use the Pico feet from Amazon at $29.95 for four or the moon gel pads at sweetwater for $6.95 for four and free shipping. I still get a little better performance out of the moon gel pads over everything else I have tried.

[cab]

Funny how all the commercial versions are priced exactly the same at $9000. Even Merrill was $9000. Now for some unknown reason, their price is $12000....

[jackman]

Hifial,

Maybe you should change your name to Hypexal!  It seems that, outside of a handful of posts when you first joined AC, you post exclusively in the Hypex circle.  Also, your good friend owns Merrel, the highest priced "repacker " of these amp modules.  You are possibly the last person on the planet I would go to for an objective opinion. 

I'm disappointed about the TRL pricing.  Even though they are a better value than Merrel, they are still too expensive.  I'm still waiting for someone to come out with a reasonably priced version of these amps in a modest case.  Forget the blinged out CNC jewelry, I'd prefer to spend money on things that actually affect the sound. 

These amp modules appear to be a commodity.  Each replacker just puts the modules in a different type of box as far as I can tell.  Hopefully more competition will help being down prices to more affordable levels.  I still hope a mainstream company chooses to liscense this technology and makes it available to the masses, in modest cases without the audio jewelry.

[AJinFLA]

You guys are making me laugh this morning.
Now I'm going to go have a $900 cup of coffee in my gaudily CNC'd hi rez taste-o-phile coffee mug and low vibration coaster.

cheers,

AJ

[AluminatiSound]

These cost way too much.

The case would be gravy to make. An hour or two, few hundred bucks.

Matt

[jackman]

These cost way too much.

The case would be gravy to make. An hour or two, few hundred bucks.

Matt

I'd pay more if the cases look as good as the ones you make.   You are a true artist.

[AluminatiSound]

I'd pay more if the cases look as good as the ones you make.   You are a true artist.

Thanks man!!!

I always try to make my designs look great but for some odd reason they don't cost as much as similar products that look plain.... 

Matt

[TF1216]

Kraemer,

Want to inquire about purchasing the NC1200 modules and starting our own amplifier company? 

I understand capitalism (a proponent, even) and I don't have a problem with amplifier designers/manufacturers charging what they want for their work.  However, the NC1200 are modules much like the NC400 modules.  I don't feel there was much testing or development of the Hypex amplifiers to justify a price about $10,000. 

I don't see why Hypex doesn't keep the modules for themselves and sell high-end amplifiers themselves.  Hmm...I may be missing something.

[Hank]

THE (SECRET) RULES OF 'AUDIO REVIEWING'

Thanks for the comic relief, Julf   Love it.

[AluminatiSound]

Kraemer,

Want to inquire about purchasing the NC1200 modules and starting our own amplifier company? 

I understand capitalism (a proponent, even) and I don't have a problem with amplifier designers/manufacturers charging what they want for their work.  However, the NC1200 are modules much like the NC400 modules.  I don't feel there was much testing or development of the Hypex amplifiers to justify a price about $10,000. 

I don't see why Hypex doesn't keep the modules for themselves and sell high-end amplifiers themselves.  Hmm...I may be missing something.

I asked for a set but they said no......

That means i have to start a company to get a set!!!!! 

Matt

[TF1216]

I asked for a set but they said no......

That means i have to start a company to get a set!!!!! 

Matt

I wonder what would happen if you came up with a visually extraordinary enclosure and presented it to Hypex and Bruno.  They may consider hearing a business proposal. 

How about incorporating some Phillips color changing LEDs into the bottom of the housing?  Is that too much audio tomfoolery? 

[Letitroll98]

To clear up some stuff here:

hifial is a good guy and a serious audiophile who doesn't like to post much unless it's a topic that really interests him.  Thus the smaller number of posts in selective circles.  I know he's been interested in the Ncore amps since they first came out because he came to my house to hear them.  He's definitely not a fanboy of any product and is actually way more critical of anything he purchases than the average audiophile. 

The NC1200 module is significantly more expensive than the NC400 and available only as OEM supply.  IMHO Hypex made a great decision on offering a reasonably priced DIY kit for the everyman, which you can buy and build your own amp if you want to, and a more powerful and sophisticated module for the higher end market.  I don't remember if it was Jan-Peter or Bruno who said it, but the NC1200 was priced to be used in amps that would retail for $10-15k, so the current pricing is right in line with what they intended, but they cannot do any price fixing of other company's retail products.

As far as the linked review by the OP, I believe more was said by what was not said that what was.  It was more of a review of the guys audio salon than the Mola Mola amps.  Nothing about the bass as it wasn't used in the speakers (why didn't they move the amps to one of the other rooms???).  The midrange was competitive with an expensive amp, and the high frequencies have the same problem that stops everyone from buying the Ncore amps.  Now I'm not worried about the bass as I expect it to be at least as awesome as the NC400 bass, the amp in general is astonishingly quiet, dynamic, and generally tuneful across the frequency spectrum, albeit with that high frequency switching distortion problem that never seems to go away.  That one factor is about the only qualitative thing said in the review, I think it's telling.     

[hifial]

Letitroll98, I appreciate your words and thank you for setting somethings straight.

I actual have been keeping track of the NCore for a few years. Ever since Bruno mentioned he was working on it. I believe on pricing a "minimum" can be set. Remember Hypex does not have to grant a license it is their tech and can dictate the terms.   

I must tell you that on the NC1200, I and others I know, have not heard any "high frequency switching distortion". This is on all kinds of speakers and gear. From Horns to Maggie and everything in between. I will say that they are so revealing that you will hear any and everything, good and bad top to bottom in the chain. I am very sensitive to HIGH frequency and have head it in some systems when others have not. Last fall, right after Sandy hit NJ there was an open house at Ralph Glasgal. Loads of people and many of his systems to be heard. In one room I hear a high pitch sound that is driving me out of the room. When I ask others "do you hear that" the reply from most, but not all, as they come and go is "hear what?" Then Ralph comes in and I ask him. Even he does not hear it but believes that I do. So we start to trouble shoot and find the cause and oh what a relief. Maybe some us are even more sensitive but I would suggest you look elsewhere in the chain first. Of course I can only base this on the one NC1200 amps I have heard.
Also the Mola-Mola amps are not in their final production design yet.

Look some of us like tubes and that is great and I do too. Some have stated having gear with tubes and the NC1200, and that works for them. I think for those it would be the same with a SS amp.

I am not saying that the NC1200 has no faults or is the best. Never said that. Never will. Nothing is. But I have heard many others around its price point and I think it is a very worthy contender and the best I have heard at around that price point. Did I just say that? I love Pass Labs Class A mono (only class a) amps. But the ones that have the watts I would want are too big, hot, heavy, use too much electric and cost too much. So like life it is all about compromises and personal taste. I have said before its like food, we all have different tastes...it is what we each like. But until you try the food cooked by my chef do not say you do not like his food because you tried all the others. That goes for any Audio Equipment.


Julf:
"I would love to see a proper engineering analysis of the audibility of the effect of "micro vibrations" on modern surface mounted circuits. I have seen a bunch of studies, mainly in the automotive and aerospace industries, but they usually talk about severe vibrations - and show how little effect even several G has."

Well this has nothing to do on the effect of micro vibrations on the reproduction of high fidelity sound of music in a transparent stereo system for the home. It only relates to will they work as expected/designed under those conditions. I have been told  (by more then one authority) of the engineering/physics behind it and understood it but I would not be able to do it justice. I promise nothing but if I can found anything I will post it here when I have the chance.

But in the mean time let me ask you. Do you trust your own ears? If you have the system to hear the difference then borrow a set of Stillpoints Ultra SS and try them in your system. Not just under one thing, that might be the one very well designed piece.
I tried this with a friend who felt it was a wast of time. We tried it under his DAC, Amps, Speakers and Distribution Box. It made an Audible improvement under each one. It was like distortion that was in the system was removed each time. No change in tone just distortion removed.

Will this work under a boom box? I doubt it.

Jackman: I agree, you are the last person I would expect to get an objective opinion. I post so little and that makes my opinion suspect? I know Merrill through several Audio Clubs we both belong to here in NJ (which I have mentioned before) so that makes my opinion suspect. Well there are several others in the Clubs that are OEM so is my opinion suspect of them also? Try Kaplan Cable as an example. So if I know them by chance and like the product that makes my opinion suspect. Well MILLIONS of Apple users are FanBoys and they never knew Steve Jobs should they be suspect. Does someone have to know someone to have their opinion suspect. Well I do not want to live in your world because in this country you are not guilty by association.

Lets all move on and all respect each others opinions.

PS Kraemer, it is my understanding that Hypex had stopped issuing new NC1200 OEM  licenses. When and if they open up the granting of licenses I do not know. Good luck to you.

[jtwrace]

but for some odd reason they don't cost as much as similar products that look plain.... 

Matt

Really, you don't know why?  Using someone else's $65k machine, free tooling, electric and building doesn't help keep the cost down?