[jarcher]

A lot of people tell me to stay away from the Pro-Ject turntables so I am not going that route. I missed out on the SL-1200mkII so the search is still on...I'm hunting for a good deal on another one and decided to pass on the denon DP-62L. Looks nice but seems kind of finicky...

I think for "entry level" you're wise to stay below $500 for a turntable / cartridge.  That SL-1200 was a good deal, but others will come around.  I think the Denon was too much at $650 - and don't know that vintage is the way to go above $500 for a starter entry level table.

I'm not that crazy about pro-ject tables in general, particularly at the higher end where they are over-shadowed by other brands.  I think this is why you might get negative comments from "TT connoisseurs" who are operating at a high level - just the way a high end car enthusiast might turn there nose up at a Honda.  It's really at the low-end where Pro-ject made their name and where they are most competitive, and as you're looking for an entry level table to see if the vinyl thing is for you, the Debut Carbon I think is the best entry level table because it has a good arm & cartridge and rca jacks so you can use decent cables (makes a big difference with the tiny signals involved), and lastly they are sent set up, so you don't have that hassle / worry & can get started playing records right away. Lastly, because the investment is minor and they are well regarded, if you do decide that vinyl is for you and want to take the next step to upgrade to a better table, they are easy to sell on at very little loss.  I started two years or so ago with a pro-ject RPM 1.3 (inferior to the Debut Carbon) and was able to sell it on in less than a day for very little loss.

Best of luck on your search!

[JackD]

Actually that Denon is an excellant table and fairly priced especially since it is local and you don't have to pay for shipping and the dangers that entails when buying off of Ebay.  If you check the completed listing for that table the average price not including shipping was $750 for the ones that had both arms.  There were two others.  One was pulled by the seller and the other only had the straight arm.  If the AT cartridge on the table is good and functioning it will get you started even if it is just an AT-95e. You can deal with cartridge upgrades later. The Denon also has an electronically damped arm and auto-lift and stop, along with VTA adjustment.  With the two arms you get one low mass and one medium mass for a greater choice of cartridges.  It is light years ahead of tables like the Project Carbon, RP1 etc. You can likely sell this table for more than what you paid if you take care of it and decide vinyl is not for you.

[jarcher]

In my experience both with the Technics SL1200 and a typical MC cartridge like the Denon 103D as well as more expensive table/arm combos, even with a very good phono preamp (in the $1000+ range) you are not likely to get sound anywhere near as good as your digital system; you will definitely notice any number of unique LP distortions, though, especially inner groove and clicks/pops etc, and until you get up to line stylus type cartridges surface noise will almost certainly be audible during quiet music passages.

I think you should be prepared to pay (used) upwards of $3000 for your phono system to have any hope of being a reasonable sounding alternative to your digital system.

YMMV.

While I think it's true what you say that an investment in the order of $3K new (or perhaps $2K used  / demo) is required for a phono system to potentially beat the BEST digital, that doesn't mean that investments at lower amounts can't render meaningful results.  I'm not sure if the OPs intention is to beat his digital source system off the bat.  It's possible your comment could be construed as saying : "if you're not willing to invest $3K for a phono system, don't bother". 

Phono systems involve more hassles and inconvenience, so for me it's best not to tie up a lot of money in it before you have some time with it to see if those trade offs are worth it (i.e. getting records, maintaining & storing them, getting up every 30 minutes, etc etc).. Therefore I think all are wise to start at the sub $500 level for a table / cartridge to see if it's for them before committing more money.  That modest amount is not going to give you the "hi-fi heaven" of +$1K table / carts, but I think it will give you enough of a taste to let you know if it's for you.  For me I found that even with entry level gear that some older stuff on LPs just sounded better than the poor CD transfers, and that along with cheap used records and the overall entertainment value was enough to get me to commit further despite the hassles.

[audiogoober]

In my experience both with the Technics SL1200 and a typical MC cartridge like the Denon 103D as well as more expensive table/arm combos, even with a very good phono preamp (in the $1000+ range) you are not likely to get sound anywhere near as good as your digital system; you will definitely notice any number of unique LP distortions, though, especially inner groove and clicks/pops etc, and until you get up to line stylus type cartridges surface noise will almost certainly be audible during quiet music passages.

I think you should be prepared to pay (used) upwards of $3000 for your phono system to have any hope of being a reasonable sounding alternative to your digital system.

YMMV.

That is one thing I was nervous about. Who thinks I should try the Pro-Ject Debut Carbon as an entry level table, and who thinks I should wait and save for something like a VPI Classic 1 or Classic 2? With my system, I'm not sure the Carbon Debut will intrigue me enough to continue on with vinyl. I don't want my potentially bad decision to give me a bad first (and probably only) impression on vinyl - in my system. It's taken me years to get my digital system to where it is now, and I'll be the first to admit I'm a critical listener. I thought my next big purchase was going to be a good DSD Transport and DSD DAC but I'm itching to give "good vinyl" a try.  Another tough decision...

Thanks for all the help everyone!

[roscoeiii]

I say grab the Technics. A good deal, and a nice way to try out vinyl. Get a good feel for vinyl through this table, and then later on you can audition other tables that might be an upgrade. If you don't have options to audition locally, there is always Music Direct who has an excellent return policy and phone support (Chris is their vinyl guru).

[audiogoober]

Actually that Denon is an excellant table and fairly priced especially since it is local and you don't have to pay for shipping and the dangers that entails when buying off of Ebay.  If you check the completed listing for that table the average price not including shipping was $750 for the ones that had both arms.  There were two others.  One was pulled by the seller and the other only had the straight arm.  If the AT cartridge on the table is good and functioning it will get you started even if it is just an AT-95e. You can deal with cartridge upgrades later. The Denon also has an electronically damped arm and auto-lift and stop, along with VTA adjustment.  With the two arms you get one low mass and one medium mass for a greater choice of cartridges.  It is light years ahead of tables like the Project Carbon, RP1 etc. You can likely sell this table for more than what you paid if you take care of it and decide vinyl is not for you.

The denon is mint, comes with both arms, a AT Precept PC220 cart, and a new $90 center weight. Should this still be a consideration? I missed out on the SL-1200mkII. The debut carbon is still an option too. Any thoughts from others?

I know anything below $1000 or so isn't going to sound nearly as good as my digital system, but I was hoping for some "glimpses"....

[rbbert]

Again, JMO, but I think given the rest of your system you're more likely to get glimpses of vinyl's faults than virtues if you go "entry-level".

[jarcher]

Actually that Denon is an excellant table and fairly priced especially since it is local and you don't have to pay for shipping and the dangers that entails when buying off of Ebay.  If you check the completed listing for that table the average price not including shipping was $750 for the ones that had both arms.  There were two others.  One was pulled by the seller and the other only had the straight arm.  If the AT cartridge on the table is good and functioning it will get you started even if it is just an AT-95e. You can deal with cartridge upgrades later. The Denon also has an electronically damped arm and auto-lift and stop, along with VTA adjustment.  With the two arms you get one low mass and one medium mass for a greater choice of cartridges.  It is light years ahead of tables like the Project Carbon, RP1 etc. You can likely sell this table for more than what you paid if you take care of it and decide vinyl is not for you.

The merits of this deal aside, I'm not sure it's wise to choose as a starter deck a +$500 20+ year old turntable.  Also when you're getting around that $650-$750 level you start to get used tables from VPI, SOTA, etc that most would agree are serious audiophile tables with good arms, etc.

I also would argue that the DL-62l is "light years" ahead of a debut carbon.  For one, the tone arm is not as good, and you don't have the benefit of standard rca jacks for better cabling.  Lastly, the case / plinth, while pretty, is just a fairly light & hollow box. Many owners seems to take measures to load them down to give them more mass / reduce resonants (along with swapping the arm & other upgrades). Not that the debut carbon has a super plinth, but you get my drift. 

I've bought a few vintage mass market tables from that era (Kenwood, Pioneer, etc) and with the exception of a good deal on a CJ Sonographe, the others have been somewhat underwhelming to tell the truth.  The CJ really came into it's own because I was able to swap out the DIN cable for a better one, otherwise it would have just been ok.  I spent more than half the cost of the table on that cable.

Hey audiogoober - sorry if this is getting too confusing / contentious.  Do you know anyone with a higher end table / preamp etc who can loan it to you to sample with you're system / room for a weekend to hear if it's worth it?  I can't think of any better way to better decide if you want to jump feet first from the get go into a major investment in vinyl.

[audiogoober]

The merits of this deal aside, I'm not sure it's wise to choose as a starter deck a +$500 20+ year old turntable.  Also when you're getting around that $650-$750 level you start to get used tables from VPI, SOTA, etc that most would agree are serious audiophile tables with good arms, etc.

I also would argue that the DL-62l is "light years" ahead of a debut carbon.  For one, the tone arm is not as good, and you don't have the benefit of standard rca jacks for better cabling.  Lastly, the case / plinth, while pretty, is just a fairly light & hollow box. Many owners seems to take measures to load them down to give them more mass / reduce resonants (along with swapping the arm & other upgrades). Not that the debut carbon has a super plinth, but you get my drift. 

I've bought a few vintage mass market tables from that era (Kenwood, Pioneer, etc) and with the exception of a good deal on a CJ Sonographe, the others have been somewhat underwhelming to tell the truth.  The CJ really came into it's own because I was able to swap out the DIN cable for a better one, otherwise it would have just been ok.  I spent more than half the cost of the table on that cable.

Hey audiogoober - sorry if this is getting too confusing / contentious.  Do you know anyone with a higher end table / preamp etc who can loan it to you to sample with you're system / room for a weekend to hear if it's worth it?  I can't think of any better way to better decide if you want to jump feet first from the get go into a major investment in vinyl.

Unfortunately, I don't know anyone with a higher end vinyl setup that I could try in my system for a few days. Excellent idea none the less.

[roscoeiii]

The cost creep is upon us...

I tend to agree that the Technics could likely be sold for a profit even, if that is the way you choose to go. Low cost of entry. A good way to try vinyl on for size, and a good reference point. And it is certainly an advantage that the Technics is local. Be wary of non-dealers packing turntables, you will want to be sure that they know what they are doing.

If you don't have an ability to audition other tables locally, I'd go with Music Direct or another online retail with a good return policy.

I think it will come down to how much you are willing to spend to try out vinyl. There are multiple ways to try vinyl out that will allow you to get your money back if you are not impressed.

[JackD]

audiogoober

The Denon with that AT Precept cartridge will give you far more than a glimpse of what vinyl is all about and as I said since you don't have the dangers of packing and shipping can easily be sold for at least what you paid for it and more as the price of the Denons and JVC's from those upper end series have doubled in the last year.  Contrary to what jarcher thinks that is far from a Japanese mass-market turntable.  As to the tonearms, the Denon is far superior in terms of technolgy and flexibilty.  As to the hollow pretty box, the Denon weighs double what the Carbon does, 25 pounds to 12 pounds. As to the cabling on the higher end Japanese TT's of that era, they were of high quality and low in capacitance and would not need changing unless defective.  But unless you want to buy new you have already found that when you find a higher end vintage table it will go away will you procrastinate. If you want the Denon it will go away like the SL-1200 while you wait for opinions on AC

[jarcher]

I thought my next big purchase was going to be a good DSD Transport and DSD DAC but I'm itching to give "good vinyl" a try.  Another tough decision...

A bit of apples & oranges.......if your looking for maximum value for limited budget, it seems upgrading the digital side is going to pay better dividends as this is still a constantly evolving and improving area of hi-fi, versus entering a whole new world of source & media (vinyl), which despite many active companies, is still a fairly "mature" technology where it seems that the benefits of advances is fairly modest (and often very expensive).  I.e. for the former you're only changing / improving one component (the DAC), where significant improvements are still being made every couple of years, whereas with the latter you're entering into more of a complex unknown with more issues and complexities to deal with, and where the state of the art doesn't seem to advance as much.

So I'd consider entering into vinyl at best as a "lateral" move and to try something else out for fun.  If best bang for the buck is the primary consideration, I'd stick to improving your digital reproduction end (i.e. better DACs & digital files, maybe the power supply end, etc).

[MaxCast]

As a newbie my self, one thing to consider is that you will have to constantly fiddle with every cart/arm change you make.  You may enjoy this.  Usually with digital once you fiddle and get everything talking to each other you are good to go.  With vinyl you will be changing carts and the set up is tedious. 
Different digital media can can have better 0's and 1's but not as much as with vinyl.  You will find yourself searching for NMint copies of favorite records and can get expensive.  You will always have a nick or pop here or there...consider that.
Yes, storage, sleeves, liners and a LP source have to be considered.  Cleaning turns into a hobby by itself.  If you have kids it's a bonus.  I have two entry level tables/carts for less than 1k and two boys (10 and 13) that love to clean and spend Fri/Sat night listening vs. watching a movie or playing video games.  I cherish the time we spend in the cave.  A cleaning system must be considered (time and expense).  I use a spin clean, old table and shop vac for the suck.
I suggest a table for less than $400 a cart for less than $200 and clean system/sleeves for $150.

[JackD]

And as if you said the price of the Denon is negotiable, with the cartridge included with the table you fit into Maxcasts formula. The Precept cartridge would fall somewhere between and AT 120 and 440

[MaxCast]

Unfortunately, I don't know anyone with a higher end vinyl setup that I could try in my system for a few days. Excellent idea none the less.

Where are you located?

[audiogoober]

Where are you located?

I live in NH but cover all of NH and MA regularly on business.

[MaxCast]

I live in NH but cover all of NH and MA regularly on business.

So, 30 miles puts you in another state or country.   
Should be Craigs List turntables often, patience, patawan.
Hopefully some AC members reach out and offer a vinyl experience for you to evaluate.

[rbbert]

A bit of apples & oranges.......if your looking for maximum value for limited budget, it seems upgrading the digital side is going to pay better dividends as this is still a constantly evolving and improving area of hi-fi, versus entering a whole new world of source & media (vinyl), which despite many active companies, is still a fairly "mature" technology where it seems that the benefits of advances is fairly modest (and often very expensive).  I.e. for the former you're only changing / improving one component (the DAC), where significant improvements are still being made every couple of years, whereas with the latter you're entering into more of a complex unknown with more issues and complexities to deal with, and where the state of the art doesn't seem to advance as much.

So I'd consider entering into vinyl at best as a "lateral" move and to try something else out for fun.  If best bang for the buck is the primary consideration, I'd stick to improving your digital reproduction end (i.e. better DACs & digital files, maybe the power supply end, etc).

+1

Have you never owned LP's and playback equipment??

[neobop]

I think you have an idea of what's involved with getting into records. If you didn't, the above posts should give you a good perspective.  If you got a table like the Denon, a phono stage, a budget record cleaning system, and a handful of nice albums, you've spent a grand or more. Then you'll want to upgrade the cart and eventually the phono preamp.  Cleaning records and playing with turntables isn't for everyone, and then there's setting up a proper support and DIY upgrades like stuffing the inside with modelling clay.

The rewards are great for those of us that are into it. The 62L is a good table, and stuffing the inside is about the only thing you'll have to modify, maybe an aftermarket mat.  An occasional click or tick doesn't bother me, could you live with that?  Many of my records are dead quiet, but now I generally get used ones and they're not all perfect. BTW, this wasn't an entry level table. Back in the '80s it was near top of the line.  There were a couple of Japanese only models that were better, and big bucks.  This was Denons equivalent of the JVC 66F. The Precept 440 and 550 are said to be super carts. I think the 220 is decent, but I don't know if the generators are all the same. It would be worth looking into because the 550ML stylus is still available. It's beryllium/microline.
neo

[jarcher]

At the $300 - $600 range we've been discussing I think any of the three options are pretty low risk.  The greater questions seems to be if you want to start your entry at a higher level (or at all given some of the comments here so far  ). 

If so, and there isn't a friend / dealer who can loan you some higher vinyl end gear to try out with your system at home, seems like your next best option would be to buy from some mail order outfit such as Music Direct (or a local dealer), if they have a liberal return policy.  Music Direct doesn't seem to accept cartridge returns unless defective, which makes some degree of sense.   I guess it would be best to choose the cartridge wisely such that you would want to keep it regardless of the table you end up using with it. The Needle Doctor & Audio Advisor on their website don't directly mention cartridges, though the ND does say you can return items for refund or exchange if you don't like them.

In any case I would just discuss / confirm with the retailer that you can return it if you don't like it (vs just damaged / defective gear).  Even if you've got to cover shipping - maybe even a re-stocking fee - if you return it, that seems to be the best way to demo at home w/ your system at the lowest financial risk.

Best of luck!