[gigbyt]

Just wondering if anyone has any experience with this Ncore amp with Klipschorns or other high efficiency speakers?

Was thinking about getting a stereo ncore amp built for me, but would like to get impressions of its use with horns.

thanks.

[jonbee]

I've no actual experience with the matchup, but I own N-cores, and know the K-horn reasonably well. Here's some general comments.
The most remarkable qualities of the NCores, in my system, are their lack of any self noise, their rock solid bass control and depth, great detail and dynamics, and an easy sounding yet highly detailed top end.
It's hard to see how any of these, particularly the noiselessness, bass control, and top end ease, would be anything but a plus with the K-horns, and probably major plusses.
The only characteristic that I'm unsure about is that the N-Core, compared to most other amps, is more dynamic and forward sounding. As K-horns are also very dynamic, this matchup MAY be too much of a good thing, but without hearing it in a system I'm not sure how that would come out.
Have fun!

[Freo-1]

 Man, at first blush, high powered amps and K-Horns do not seem to be a good combination.  Paul Klipsch's favorite saying (next to Bull***t), was as follows:

“What this country needs is a good 5 watt amplifier”   

[playntheblues]

Paul Klipsch is no Doubt a legend and I have owned K-horns, Lascalas and Cornwalls.  Having said that here is a quote from another thread here which I tend to agree with.

"A quote from Tom Danley on another forum in a thread about the need for high power amps:

"For me this happened when I had a chance to be in an official ABX listening test of a number of amplifiers. I brought in my trusty Threshold stasis as my known reference and used speakers I had designed at work and had at home as well.

There was plenty of time and I went through a number of my reference CD’s to find a few passages that brought out the differences best and then went to “without knowledge” listening. At this point one could still hear some differences between them but they generally fell into two groups which I could reliably hear. What I heard were differences in the decay part of the sound which I have no explanation for (I used to build amplifiers too).

A funny and unexpected thing also happened which is why I am writing, in comparing the various pro-amps to my Threshold, I found that one group and it were indistinguishable except the Threshold began to sound “less dynamic” as I increased the level. AS the Thresholds VU led scale showed the peaks were -20dB or so down, I was puzzled. Connecting an oscilloscope to the output revealed the truth.

At a point WAY below one could hear it as a “flaw”, at a point that indicator showed peaks as 1/100th rated power, there was instantaneous voltage clipping.
To be very clear, this WAS NOT audible at all as a flaw or heaven forbid the familiar “clipping” the only clue was that compared to a much larger amplifier, the Threshold was somehow less dynamic above a modest level.

At that point, I switched to a larger pro-sound amplifier at home too. Currently my upper speakers (SH-50’s) are about 100dB 1w1m and I use an 800W/ch power amp on these above 80Hz.
With any commercial recording or movie soundtrack, this is more than enough headroom to never breathe hard but I can still reach instantaneous limiting with the fireworks recording.

Anyway, the big and unrealized advantage of having more power is that the short voltage clipping events reduce the dynamics long before it’s audible as a flaw. This can be seen (when present) by using an oscilloscope to examine the Voltage waveform going to the loudspeaker.

To be clear, just as a subwoofers job is to extend the response and that is not the same as “turning up the bass”, this IS NOT the same as “cranking it up” although a larger amplifier lets you do that too if your speakers are up to it.. This is about reproducing the peaks (in the “good” recordings) which are often clipped off much more often than people realize.""

[Freo-1]

 There is more than one form of distortion.  I’m sure you are aware of the “First Watt” principle.  Somehow, I think Paul Klipsch knew of it as well.  Speakers at 104db/w or more do not need all that much wattage to “spilt your hair” as it were.   

While I understand the argument about clipping, I question if that is all what is going on.  Keep in mind that tube amps have a gentle clip feature, so it would be less of an noticeable issue.   My experience with high powered pro amps is that while they sound “clean”, they do not (subjectively) sound as natural as something along the lines of a Pass Labs/First Watt offering.  I have tried them, and always wind up going back to a Pass Labs type of amp (or a moderately powered tube offering).  I think the class B topology and feedback does something to the signal that makes it seem to sound hard by comparison.
 
 

[Rclark]

 Bruno Putzeys says manufacturers gloat about their first watt because everything above that is crap. The Ncore has about the best quality"first watt" available and doesn't lose that quality.

There's no point in bringing up distortion because on the Ncore it can't even be measured, it's so low.

[roscoeiii]

I would worry about overdamping the K-horns with the Ncore. When I was in the high sensitivity speaker game, I found that some amps (such as the Pass Aleph 30) overdamped the bass on the speaker. I did not have this problem with other amps with lower damping factors (FirstWatt or Atma-Sphere amps for example). In a more conventional speaker, with a high damping factor you can get the "iron control" over the bass that is a good thing. But for speakers like K-horns too much damping factor will unnaturally attenuate these speakers. K-horns were not designed with amps like the Ncore in mind.

You might want to also look at Atma-sphere's article on voltage vs. power paradigms in amp designs. Certain speakers are better suited to (and are often designed for) one or the other. K-horns are squarely in the power paradigm, and I'd characterize the Ncore as a voltage paradigm amp.

http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

You will have to ask other ACers or Ralph from Atma-Sphere if you want more details on these two paradigms than this. They are also discussed at some length in threads on Audiogon, Audio Asylum and perhaps here as well.

[Julf]

"The Objectivist/Subjectivist debate has been raging in audiophile circles for nearly three decades. Objectivists operate exclusively in the Voltage Paradigm while Subjectivists tend to operate in the Power Paradigm. "

Uh, yes... I guess because Objectivists tend to operate within constraints of engineering and science, while Subjectivists...

[playntheblues]

Can I hear an AMEN?   

[roscoeiii]

"The Objectivist/Subjectivist debate has been raging in audiophile circles for nearly three decades. Objectivists operate exclusively in the Voltage Paradigm while Subjectivists tend to operate in the Power Paradigm. "

Uh, yes... I guess because Objectivists tend to operate within constraints of engineering and science, while Subjectivists...

No substitute for actual experience and listening. We listen with our ears.

Speaker-amp matching is huge. And different speakers are designed with different amplification in mind.

What can be measured is important and more data is always preferable to less. But measurements are not the be all end all.

[Julf]

No substitute for actual experience and listening. We listen with our ears.

And unfortunately our ears are not reliably calibrated - they change with time of day, and a zillion other factors. And we don't listen just with our ears - the brain is very much in the loop, with a wonderful ability to deceive itself.

What can be measured is important and more data is always preferable to less. But measurements are not the be all end all.

Agree. And I don't want to go down the rabbit-hole of objectivist vs subectivist, all I wanted to point out was the interesting appeal to subjectivism in the "Power Paradigm" pamphlet. As in to proactively guard yourself against all those pesky engineer nerds that will try to discredit your conjectures...

[rollo]

  Why is this getting complicated ? Put an N-Core in a K-Horn system and listen to it. You Likey buy you no likey go elsewhere. Perceived sound is subjective agreed. Hopefully the designer pleases most with the sonics of such. If not the buyer goes elsewhere.
   How a component interacts with another in a system is only answered by listening after said measurements are considered. One cannot dismiss the end result meaning its sonic merits.
   Even hard core engineers such as those employed at Magnepan and AVA listen to their designs before putting them out there. Did they reassemble Humpty Dumpty better this time.


charles

[jackman]

I would worry about overdamping the K-horns with the Ncore. When I was in the high sensitivity speaker game, I found that some amps (such as the Pass Aleph 30) overdamped the bass on the speaker. I did not have this problem with other amps with lower damping factors (FirstWatt or Atma-Sphere amps for example). In a more conventional speaker, with a high damping factor you can get the "iron control" over the bass that is a good thing. But for speakers like K-horns too much damping factor will unnaturally attenuate these speakers. K-horns were not designed with amps like the Ncore in mind.

You might want to also look at Atma-sphere's article on voltage vs. power paradigms in amp designs. Certain speakers are better suited to (and are often designed for) one or the other. K-horns are squarely in the power paradigm, and I'd characterize the Ncore as a voltage paradigm amp.

http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

You will have to ask other ACers or Ralph from Atma-Sphere if you want more details on these two paradigms than this. They are also discussed at some length in threads on Audiogon, Audio Asylum and perhaps here as well.

I'm with Roscoe on this one.  Although I'm a fan of the Ncore amps and own them, I love the sound of K-Horns and tubes, SET, etc.  Those speakers sound so much better to me with tubes.  I've listened to K-horns with SS amplification, even Class A and it did not have the magic of tubes and those big horn speakers.  With certain SS amps, they were unlistenable, but with decent tubes (even low power tube amps) they sound very good.  I would be shocked if the NCore, as good as it is, would come close to a good tube setup, if your main speakers are K-Horns. 

[gigbyt]

Lot of good responses, thanks.

I am usually in the camp of hearing is believing, when it comes to new amps ,preamps,etc.

I just sold a Mcintosh mc-2500 that a few people had told me was not a good match.

It sounded incredible with the k-horns, only parted with it because its a 130 beast that had to live on the floor, I do miss those big blue meters something awful,and i will probably end up with a mac amp again in the future. I've been following the hypex amp for a few months now
and am intrigued by the possibilties. I do have a decent tube preamp.
I just bought an Aleph 30 to try with the k-horns, hope it works out but you never know until you get it in there and listen. I will eventually end up with an Ncore 400 amp, Its just an itch that i will have to scratch someday,LOL.

So not a lot of people are using it with K-horns though ,Huh?.

I am hoping to hear from people with first hand knowledge of this pairing...........

[roscoeiii]

Have you read the Ncore tour page? If not K-horns, maybe similar speakers.

Curious to hear how the Aleph 30 sounds with the K-horns. My experience with similar sensitivity speakers was that the bass was overdamped. I preferred lower damping factor amps (incl Pass designed First Watts) with those speakers, as I mentioned above. All else about the Aleph I loved. 

[gigbyt]

I have read every post in the tour page with great interest. What a great thing that gentleman did with letting people ship his amp all over the country and try it out.

I will definately be on the lookout for bass issues with the aleph 30. One of the things i really like about the K-horn is its ability to pound out clean bass when its there in the recording.

I have owned and heard several of the klipsch heritage line with SS and tubes. Tubes always seemed to lack in the bass area to me.  SS not always having the sweetest midrange.  So i'm trying to find a SS amp with tube qualities.
I do have the tube preamp to add a bit of tube flavor if you will.

I just came from a pair of ADS 1530's, so i dont mind me some powerful bass 

[Freo-1]

I'm with Roscoe on this one.  Although I'm a fan of the Ncore amps and own them, I love the sound of K-Horns and tubes, SET, etc.  Those speakers sound so much better to me with tubes.  I've listened to K-horns with SS amplification, even Class A and it did not have the magic of tubes and those big horn speakers.  With certain SS amps, they were unlistenable, but with decent tubes (even low power tube amps) they sound very good.  I would be shocked if the NCore, as good as it is, would come close to a good tube setup, if your main speakers are K-Horns.

I agree.  I noticed much the same thing with SS and K-Horns (ANY SS amp).  No one amp is perfect for all speakers.  There is a synergy with any speaker/amp setup.  No one amp is perfect for ALL speakers.

Regarding the subjective/objective debate, both sides have merit and limitations.  Measurements are important in assessing performance, but they are not the be all/end all either.  Measuring amps for a single frequency into a resistor is NOT the same as getting a proper reading of an amp across a speaker's crossover with actual music.  Then, there is the room intaction of the speaker for a given listening environment.  I still think measurements have a way to go before they truly capture enough data to translate to an accurate sound reproduction.

[jackman]

Lot of good responses, thanks.

I am usually in the camp of hearing is believing, when it comes to new amps ,preamps,etc.

I just sold a Mcintosh mc-2500 that a few people had told me was not a good match.

It sounded incredible with the k-horns, only parted with it because its a 130 beast that had to live on the floor, I do miss those big blue meters something awful,and i will probably end up with a mac amp again in the future. I've been following the hypex amp for a few months now
and am intrigued by the possibilties. I do have a decent tube preamp.
I just bought an Aleph 30 to try with the k-horns, hope it works out but you never know until you get it in there and listen. I will eventually end up with an Ncore 400 amp, Its just an itch that i will have to scratch someday,LOL.

So not a lot of people are using it with K-horns though ,Huh?.

I am hoping to hear from people with first hand knowledge of this pairing...........

Where are you located?  I have an Ncore NC400 based amp and I'd be happy to bring it over sometime, if you are in the Chicago area.  I would suggest throwing a good tube amp or a First Watt Class A into the mix with those K-Horns.  The Ncore is very good sounding but I still don't think it will sound as good as tubes with those speakers. 

[Freo-1]

I would also look at one of the First Watt SIT amps.  They have a Static Induced Transistor output stage.  This is basically a reintroduction of the V-FET, which has a dedicated following.