Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms

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acresm22

Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« on: 10 Jan 2013, 06:12 pm »
Hey all, quick question regarding speaker impedance. For a flea watt tube amp with a nominal output impedance of roughly 6 ohms, would it be a problem driving a single driver speaker rated at 16 ohms? Would that be an easier load than an 8 ohm speaker? Would the amp's output power change into 16 ohms rather than 8 ohms?
I've read conflicting things online...one said the amp's output power would drop by half into a 16 ohm speaker. But that seems to conflict with others who say that lower speaker impedance is actually the more difficult load for a small tube amp...that you wouldn't want to drive a 4 ohm speaker with a 2-3 watt tube amp of a nominal 8 ohm output impedance.
Thanks!

roscoeiii

Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #1 on: 10 Jan 2013, 06:31 pm »
One thing you will want to keep clear is the difference between the amp's output impedance and a speaker tap that is intended for a certain impedance speaker. When a speaker tap is designated as 4 or 8 or 16 ohms, that is the referring to the speaker impedance for which that tap is ideally suited. The actual impedance of that tap is a different matter.

I will let others more knowledgeable than me take it from here...

acresm22

Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #2 on: 10 Jan 2013, 07:17 pm »
Just to clarify...my 2.5 watt/channel amp has a single pair of speaker taps with a fixed output set at 4 ohms. So I'm wondering how this amp would drive a 16 ohm single driver speaker system.

roscoeiii

Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #3 on: 10 Jan 2013, 07:52 pm »
So is the output impedance 6 ohms (which you said in your 1st post) or 4 ohms (in your last post)?

What make and model amp is this?

As I understand it, for maximum power you want a good match between output impedance and speaker nominal impedance, thus the separate taps found on most tube amps. But amp makers will generally provide you with some indication of what impedance speakers are best suited to any given tap for maximum output.

If you don't get an answer here, I'd ask over at diyaudio.com

richidoo

Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #4 on: 10 Jan 2013, 07:57 pm »
Hey all, quick question regarding speaker impedance. For a flea watt tube amp with a nominal output impedance of roughly 6 ohms, would it be a problem driving a single driver speaker rated at 16 ohms?

Neither the amp nor the speaker will be harmed, but electrical damping will be low, reducing detail compared to a low impedance amp. Low damping is part of the tube sound. More noticable in the bass where more current is needed for cone control. Low damping means the current is delivered slowly.

Quote
Would that be an easier load than an 8 ohm speaker?

Technically, yes. It is an easier electrical load, but there are other factors, like phase at impedance dips, and speaker sensitivity that come into play in the real world.

Quote
Would the amp's output power change into 16 ohms rather than 8 ohms?

For a given output voltage, the lower impedance will draw more power, and sound louder. However if you live in the real world and adjust the volume to the same loudness then the power for each load would be the same, theoretically.  But the amp must be able to make higher voltage output to achieve same loudness and power output into the 16 ohm speaker as the 8. Speakers used to be 16-32 ohms when tubes ruled, because of better damping and tubes had no problem making high voltage necessary to play loud. When SS took over, the transistors can make current easily, but voltage is limited to the PS rails, which is lower on transistors. So speaker impedances dropped to make it easier for SS amps to play loudly. They would voltage clip trying to play loudly on a 32 ohm vintage speaker.

Quote
I've read conflicting things online...one said the amp's output power would drop by half into a 16 ohm speaker. But that seems to conflict with others who say that lower speaker impedance is actually the more difficult load for a small tube amp...that you wouldn't want to drive a 4 ohm speaker with a 2-3 watt tube amp of a nominal 8 ohm output impedance.

These statements can both be true, but there are other variables that are not mentioned. The amp's power would drop in half into a double impedance load, if the volume was not turned up to match the loudness of the 8 ohm speaker.

The lower impedance is not necessarily more difficult. The amp does not think "difficult or easy." It either has enough power for all the variables at that instant or not. Enough power just relates to the level of distortion. If your amp is rated 2 watts then it will sound audibly distorted above 1 watt, and hit 10% distortion unlistenable at 2-3w. Depends on how the power rating is made. Difficult just means not enough power for the job, which means some combination of too loud SPL, too low load impedance, too capacitive phase, too high output impedance. Simply being 4 ohm load for a 6 ohm amp is not necessarily difficult if the other factors are "easy."  Current source amplifiers have infinite source impedance and they can sound wonderful when used the the right speaker.

Amp power only becomes a problem when there is not enough to do the job. If the 4 ohm speaker is 110dB sensitivity at 2.83V then the 2 watt amp will be fine for ear splitting 100dB musical peaks, although the damping is still low so you will have a tubey smooth sound rather class D etched detail, but there will be enough power. Conversely, if you try to play a 8ohm speaker with 87dB sensitivity and wild impedance plot with dips to 3 ohms and capacitive phase then you would be hearing nothing but distortion as the power limits of the amp are exceeded at 80dB SPL.  The amp would soon fail from overheating.

Impedance, damping, phase, sensitivity, loudness all interact to determine a good or bad result.

Just to clarify...my 2.5 watt/channel amp has a single pair of speaker taps with a fixed output set at 4 ohms. So I'm wondering how this amp would drive a 16 ohm single driver speaker system.

That depends on how loud you want to play it, and what the impedance and phase curves of the speaker look like.  Since it's a single driver speaker I think the phase and impedance will be OK. Just depends on how loud you want to go. Not too loud, I think... But hopefully the sound quality will make up for it.

acresm22

Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #5 on: 10 Jan 2013, 08:02 pm »
Yeah, sorry about that...the amp's output impedance is 4 ohms. It's a Music Reference EM7, first gen.
In the meantime, I did find some earlier comments from Roger Modjestki about using high impedance speakers with the lower impedance EM7...more damping but slightly less power. He said feel free to experiment, there is no risk of danger to the amp...likened it to the effects of a cable change.

acresm22

Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #6 on: 10 Jan 2013, 08:04 pm »
Many thanks, Richidoo. Very helpful.

roscoeiii

Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #7 on: 10 Jan 2013, 08:13 pm »
Yeah, sorry about that...the amp's output impedance is 4 ohms. It's a Music Reference EM7, first gen.
In the meantime, I did find some earlier comments from Roger Modjestki about using high impedance speakers with the lower impedance EM7...more damping but slightly less power. He said feel free to experiment, there is no risk of danger to the amp...likened it to the effects of a cable change.

Since there is a Music Reference Circle here, you could also contact Roger directly via PM on this. But you will probably want to have an impedance plot for your speaker and let him know how that looks (where are the peaks and dips, etc).

Speedskater

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  • Kevin
Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #8 on: 10 Jan 2013, 10:27 pm »
Yeah, sorry about that...the amp's output impedance is 4 ohms. It's a Music Reference EM7, first gen.
*********

Really I think that it's:
The amp's designed load impedance is 4 Ohms.
The amp's output impedance is hopefully under 1 Ohm.
Modern large amp's have output impedance's well under 1/10 Ohm.

Moving on:
2&1/2 Watts  @  4 Ohms = 0.79 Amp & 3.16 Volt
2&1/2 Watts @ 16 Ohms = 0.39 Amp & 6.32 Volt

So if you switch from 4 Ohm to 16 Ohm speakers, the only question is can the amp output the higher voltage?

But note that the amp is optimized to the 4 Ohm load.

roscoeiii

Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #9 on: 10 Jan 2013, 10:36 pm »
Really I think that it's:
The amp's designed load impedance is 4 Ohms.
The amp's output impedance is hopefully under 1 Ohm.
Modern large amp's have output impedance's well under 1/10 Ohm.

Moving on:
2&1/2 Watts  @  4 Ohms = 0.79 Amp & 3.16 Volt
2&1/2 Watts @ 16 Ohms = 0.39 Amp & 6.32 Volt

So if you switch from 4 Ohm to 16 Ohm speakers, the only question is can the amp output the higher voltage?

But note that the amp is optimized to the 4 Ohm load.

This is getting at the same point I was trying to make in my first post. "designed load impedance"=my "speaker tap."

Acresm22, how did you get this number of 4 ohms? Did you measure the actual output impedance?

richidoo

Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #10 on: 10 Jan 2013, 10:54 pm »
The output impedance of transformer output tube amps is usually between 1 ohm and 2 ohms.

acresm22

Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #11 on: 10 Jan 2013, 11:10 pm »
The 4 ohm figure came from an AC post by Roger back when the EM7 amps were first out: "The first batch of these amplifiers had fixed output set around 4 ohms. Into an 8 ohm load they had more damping but less power, about 2.5 watts so we called it at that."

I'm just going to try the 16 ohm driver and see how it sounds. My main concerns were a) could I risk damage to the amp by using a 16 ohm speaker; and b) would the EM7 amp's power output drop to 1.25 watts/channel into a 16 ohm speaker.

Thanks for all your input, guys.

Speedskater

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  • Kevin
Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #12 on: 10 Jan 2013, 11:30 pm »
Let me emphasis that "amplifier output impedance" and "speaker load impedance" are two very different things.

*Scotty*

Re: Speaker impedance: 16 vs 8 ohms
« Reply #13 on: 11 Jan 2013, 12:52 am »
The tube amplifier transformer's secondary winding resistance is not the same as its impedance intended to match the load. This is why you will see 4ohm, 8ohm and sometimes 16ohm output taps.
Scotty