[rooze]

Hey!

So I'm the sort of bloke who likes to write things down as a way of helping me to resolve issues, and if I can involve a couple hundred people in the process, so much the better 

Basically I need to make a decision on which path to take towards assembling a music server. On the one hand, I have an old desk-top PC with XP home edition. I haven't booted it in a while so I don't have the specs, but it's a mid-level machine purchased around 5 yrs ago, so nothing fancy.

On the other hand, I have my workhorse computer which is an older Macbook Pro 15". So I'm a Mac convert, but not oppose to stepping back to the dark side.

My DAC is the versatile Cambridge Audio 851C. It has USB, S/PDIF, Toslink, AES/EBU inputs, and everything is upsampled to 24/384

In a nutshell, my question is this: Which option will sound the best - my old PC rigged out with a new sound card (say something around $250), or a new Mac Mini using the USB output (assuming that's the best way).

Using the old PC gives me the problem of accommodating the big ugly thing into my equipment rack and figuring out how to control it from the chair. It's too far away to see a VDU and use wireless controls, and I don't have a smartphone or an iPod.

The new Mac Mini approach would allow me to use my Macbook pro as the control center, so no problems there. But I'm looking at north of $1000 (Mac Mini, memory, Optical drive, Pure Music Software) versus perhaps $450 for the PC route (new hard drive, silent fan, sound card).

The criteria in order of importance are:

1 - Sound quality
2 - Ease of setup and use
3 - Cost

The Mac Mini wins on point 2 and the PC wins point 3, so it comes down to sound quality.

I'm expecting people to say that the PC route is going to sound better, but how much better? Is it worth dogging around with an old Windows box?

I've already messed a little using the Macbook, iTunes and a free trial of Pure Music, so I have a handle on what I'm going to get if I go the Mac mini route, but no idea on the PC route.

Appreciate any help, tips, cash donations etc etc...

Cheers

R    ZE

[HAL]

If you are looking at a PC as a Music Server, Windows 7 or Windows 8 with WASAPI Event driven output sounds better than Windows XP with Kernel Streaming in my listening trials.  This is based on driving a USB DAC directly from the PC. 

The latest CAPS PC Music Server discussed here on AC is a very good DIY system. 

Good luck with the decision.

[Vincent Kars]

Why buying a soundcard for the PC as you can hook it up to the DAC over USB?

[MichaelHiFi]

I've been playing with both Mac and PC servers as well as Squeezebox products and PS Audio Perfect Wave products for many years.

Often I found that simply placing an album on a turntable to be far more convenient.   

PC over Mac thought:  JRiver is light years better than LiTunes (my strong opinion). Audiovana is good and others on the Mac platform I had issues with.
In specific setups, PC seems to sound more open and alive. Ultimately I prefer the "PC" sound but the Mac mini server is really great depending on the rest of your system. I found the Mac smoother overall.

Mac over PC thought: Building a PC server such as the CAPs server can be painful. It's hard to get right often and finicky as well. Cards like SoTM are fragile to both themselves and your motherboard. Good Luck  Oh they sound great but read the manual. (precautions) I mean really? My first motherboard lasted a few weeks and the first SoTM card never worked. Mac's are pretty bullet-proof. They are generally easy to setup, have many music software options, IPAD and all. Just lag a bit behind in sound quality maybe. At least in my limited experience.

 I haven't tried the other solutions yet such as outboard USB reclockers. They are expensive but it might be wexpenseexpensice depending upon your pocketbook and goals.
 Tonight I'll be another CAPs like server using a more conventional type MB, hardware and a SoTM card. (WTF does CAPs mean anyway  )

Wish me luck and good luck to you. 

[srb]

(WTF does CAPs mean anyway  )

Computer Audiophile Pocket Server

[rooze]

@HAL - Thanks, I've resisted any urge to send Microsoft more money, but perhaps now is the time. I'm still reeling from having dumped $500 into a Vista laptop, perhaps I need to get over it!

@Vincent - Good point and I'm not sure what the answer is. My (limited) understanding led me to the belief that having a soundcard was necessary in a Windows machine, at least necessary for getting optimal sound quality. Don't most of the music servers have a sound card?

@Michael - yes, to be honest, I'm torn between investing in a server and getting back into vinyl. I let my rig and most of my rekerds go around a decade ago.
Thanks also for your take on Mac versus PC. I think I'm really looking for someone to push me towards the Mac route, which is ultimately where I feel most comfortable, and you've helped do that by giving a positive take on the Mac sound.
Oh....good luck!

@srb - thanks, I hadn't come across that before starting this thread. I've read through the build instructions and think I could probably handle it so long as there wasn't too much software configuration to do. The V3 seems to take another step in terms of skill requirements, so that might be a bit much for me.

I spent another few hours yesterday playing back via the Macbook Pro into the USB on my Cambridge Player. I think overall the sound isn't really as good as playing direct from the CD. It's different, but not necessarily better. The one thing I haven't tried yet is doing a 'bit perfect' rip. I'm just shoving the CD in the Mac and letting iTunes do the copy. So I need to find and download some software to give me the bit perfect transfer, then try it again to see how that impacts the quality.
If it isn't much better, then the choice is either to go down the Windows route, or buy a turntable!!

Cheers

Rooze

[toddbagwell]

Good point and I'm not sure what the answer is. My (limited) understanding led me to the belief that having a soundcard was necessary in a Windows machine, at least necessary for getting optimal sound quality. Don't most of the music servers have a sound card?

I feel this was the case prior to high quality USB digital signal inputs on DACS.

From an analog output, you are more likely to have high quality sound from a separate card that is off the motherboard, and has dedicated circuitry. I use a sound card for the digital output, and i have fewer pops and clicks on my music PC than I do on my other PC with MoBo optical out.

If you find a DAC that you like that has a USB input, I'd save my money and not buy a soundcard immediately, or even add that to your DAC budget.

Just my opinion...

todd

[HAL]

Post removed by HAL

[rooze]

Thanks Todd,

It's making much more sense now.

It seems I pretty much have all the hardware I need to make a meaningful comparison between PC sound and Mac. Granted it wouldn't be fully optimized, but it should give me enough information to make a decision.

Thanks HAL, I'll check into that thread next..

Cheers

Rooze

[lcrim]

The fact that HAL is a vendor selling a product, his music server, makes his advice, at the very least questionable.  It seems to me that this is an obvious conflict of interests and the vendor is prohibited from making sales presentations in this circle.
Larry

[HAL]

Then try this since it is all free.

If you are going to do the PC/MAC comparison, you might want to try Fidelizer on the PC to do some optimization.  It is a free download. 

http://www.windowsxlive.net/fidelizer/

Try using a bit perfect player like Foobar2000 if you do not have one. 

[rooze]

OK thanks again.

If I install Foobar on the PC and do all the CD ripping on the PC, then transfer the ripped WAV files across the network to the MAC for doing comparisons, there shouldn't be an issue with that, right? I mean files ripped using Foobar on a PC are bit perfect and should play back anywhere....just want to be sure before I start the slow and tedious process!

Cheers

Rooze

[HAL]

I use Exact Audio Copy for ripping CD's bit perfectly.  Just rip the CD to WAV files.  Import them into iTunes with a lossless encoding and then compare.

EDIT:

If you are using Foobar2000 on a Windows XP machine, load the Kernel Streaming component for bit perfect replay for the output.

[jarcher]

For ease of use / lowest cost and very good sound quality in your situation I would:

1)  Use your MacPro as the server.  You're already using itunes w/ pure music.  There may be software that's marginally better out there, but is it really worth the time & effort to try them all out for the marginal return?

The mac also has the advantage that if / when you want to move to a new machine, with time machine / hard drive, the transition is painless.

Some will say that a laptop is not ideal as a server because of all the noise generated by the screen, etc.  If that possibility really bothers you, then get a used Mac Mini for about $400. 

2) Get a used ipod touch or new tablet (used ipad or say a new Google Nexus @ $200) as the remote controller.  If you've ever used such a device as the remote controller, you'll never want to go back to another way of browsing / finding / controlling your media.

3) Run the USB from your MacPro to the CA DAC.  If you're suffering from audio nervosa about the quality of the USB - DAC link, you can always get a USB to SPDIF converter (e.g. a music fidelity VLink or HiFace2) to be the go between. 

4) Pour a drink & enjoy your music

PC audio can really drive you crazy w/ all the alternatives - whether on the software or hardware end.  I've been there.  Don't fall into that trap!

P.s. Full disclosure : I use a second hand mac mini, pure music, hiface2 + iphone or tablet for PC audio.  I've also used squeezeboxes w/ macs as server, which also work well. 

[rooze]

Thanks Jarcher...

Avoiding getting caught up in the cycle of trying this - changing that is a big factor for me. I'm definitely more inclined towards the easy, set-and-forget options available.

I've pretty much been using my Macbook in the way you suggest for a couple days now, I just need to get the bit-perfect software then I'm pretty much set for now...
Since my superdrive on the Mac isn't working too reliably, I'll probably do the ripping on the PC with EAC and drag the files across to the Mac once ripped, then play back in iTunes/PM.

Sounds like a plan! Whoopy doo!

Cheers

Rooze

[richidoo]

I use Sonos Connect as my music server. It is cheap, small, WAF, very easy to setup and maintain, great tech support, upgrades itself, continual software dev, has fast library scanning, self contained music database, streams files and internet, various remote control options. The downsides of Sonos are that it lacks hirez file playback, can't use any 3rd party DSP plugins, and it has some jitter on the digital output. I use a jitter cancelling DAC, Buffalo 2 by TwistedPearAudio.com with good results. I like the low price, flexibility and very good sound of this combination.

If you're willing to use Linux there is some great music server software available, like MPD, and it will run on small cheap fanless hardware. Remote control with a tablet or your Mac. Some linux experience needed for setup, or willing to learn.

Older USB audio is not as good as the newer async USB audio. Depending on how old your Cambridge DAC is, use the USB input if it can do hirez and sounds good, otherwise a USB>SPDIF adapter might work better, like M2tech HiFace.

[jarcher]

The fact that HAL is a vendor selling a product, his music server, makes his advice, at the very least questionable.  It seems to me that this is an obvious conflict of interests and the vendor is prohibited from making sales presentations in this circle.
Larry

I think many if not most of us who have spent a reasonable amount of time on AC, particularly on these topics, know that HAL designs / manufacturers / sells music servers.  I've not found his advice therefore in the least questionable - in fact many times it's been very helpful.  E.g. he was the first to clue me into using memory play in playback software - a big benefit. 

Though it may not be kosher for him to plug his gear, I'll do so shamelessly.  I've had at least two occasions to see & hear his server, and if I wasn't somewhat of an Apple / Linux fanboy & tinkerer, I'd buy one.  I think his server is an excellent and very reasonably priced option for someone looking into a first media sever (or for someone maybe looking for one for a second system), particularly considering all the grossly overpriced media servers out there from name brand boutique manufacturers.  You get a very compact product optimized for sound quality.  Most importantly, its supported by someone who has the knowledge and motivation for excellent after sales service. For a complex product like that, this is important, unless you're a tinkerer wanting a DIY experience, or relish dealing w/ technical support in some far off land reading from a crib sheet - or paying $100 an hour for real technical support.

[jarcher]

Thanks Jarcher...

Avoiding getting caught up in the cycle of trying this - changing that is a big factor for me. I'm definitely more inclined towards the easy, set-and-forget options available.

I've pretty much been using my Macbook in the way you suggest for a couple days now, I just need to get the bit-perfect software then I'm pretty much set for now...
Since my superdrive on the Mac isn't working too reliably, I'll probably do the ripping on the PC with EAC and drag the files across to the Mac once ripped, then play back in iTunes/PM.

Sounds like a plan! Whoopy doo!

Cheers

Rooze

Would be curious about your experience using EAC vs ripping directly to itunes.  I've only ever done the latter choosing apple lossless. 

As previously alluded to - the biggest sound quality difference for me was using "memory play" mode on pure music.  Regular mode was maybe ok vs Itunes, but the "memory play" mode really made the biggest difference.

Best of luck!

[Big Red Machine]

Check out the Salk Stream Player.  Linux-based and has no bells and whistles to inhibit good sound.  Can be Android or iPad controlled.

[rooze]

Check out the Salk Stream Player.  Linux-based and has no bells and whistles to inhibit good sound.  Can be Android or iPad controlled.

Thanks....I came across that by accident but couldn't find a price on it....looks like an interesting box of tricks.