[wisnon]

http://www.techradar.com/news/home-cinema/home-theatre-audio/home-cinema-audio/audio/hi-fi-radio/hi-fi-boss-slams-rip-off-industry-162930

[Stu Pitt]

An interesting article, to say the least.  My problem with his views - he says people/consumers are intelligent, yet implies that people will buy anything a magazine tells them.  Either consumers are humans capable of making informed decisions or they're sheep being lead around; which is it?

As much as I hate all the over-priced, over-hyped nonsense, at the end of the day it's not on the magazines nor the manufacturers; it's on the consumer.  None of it would exist if people left it on the self and walked away.  Same goes for every non-vital product out there.

[Chromisdesigns]

An interesting article, to say the least.  My problem with his views - he says people/consumers are intelligent, yet implies that people will buy anything a magazine tells them.  Either consumers are humans capable of making informed decisions or they're sheep being lead around; which is it?

As much as I hate all the over-priced, over-hyped nonsense, at the end of the day it's not on the magazines nor the manufacturers; it's on the consumer.  None of it would exist if people left it on the self and walked away.  Same goes for every non-vital product out there.

But that goes to the heart of the whole advertising industry, as well as most of the consumer products industry -- overall, people WILL buy what they are told to buy, if you tell them often enough in creative enough ways.  That's what brand management is all about.

PS, it works in politics, too.

[Rclark]

 I do think a lot of the prices for this gear are obscene and therefore the expectation bias runs high. Your perception of the sound quality runs parallel to the price tag. Boggles my mind to see these "hundred thousand" dollar speakers that don't look any more advanced than a $5,000 speaker.

 But you have companies now, like Emotiva, which don't hide anything, you go to their website, you can see the insides of the gear, and have  a gaining reputation for sound quality and value. Pez and Tyson said the Stealth 8's at RMAF sounded like "cost no object", "could be $10,000 for all I know."... and they are $1500 shipped.

 SVS is another example with their new speakers, we've all seen in that new thread. Tall, piano black finished floor standers with an advanced shape, and advanced crossover, good drivers, and dual opposed 8" subs, 4 of those total.. for $2,000 shipped with a 5 year warrantee, 45 day trial, and 1 year upgrade..
 
 It's moves like that one that will expose the chaff from the wheat.

 Tekton is another good one.. Pendragon, etc.. Very highly received and not stupid expensive.

 But yeah a lot of these prices are OBSCENE and when you ask for a reason as to why something should cost so much (like when I asked Tonepub why his speakers should be worth $140,000) you NEVER get a straight answer. Just "it sounds good and makes me happy" or something along those lines.  (and other posters will chime in and discourage any further questioning).

 Fishy indeed.

[sts9fan]

Remember 2007?

[JLM]

This same guy doesn't send out equipment for review (reviewers have to buy first, like anyone else - factory direct, almost no dealers).  He does have a loyal fan/customer base.  I did audition one of the later versions (he updates continually) of the ADM-9T (2-way active standmounts with built-in 24/96 DAC) last summer.  They sounded nice, but not remarkable compared to my $5,500 worth of floorstanders/monoblocks/DAC.  And the quoted dealer price was about 30% above internet factory direct ($2200 for the current version).

What intrigued me (beyond the concept of having a full digital audio system in two small cabinets) was the man, who reminds me of Frank Van Alstine or Brian Cheney (RIP) - a been around the block no B.S. kind of straight shooter.  I have a real soft spot for them, whether I agree with them or not.

[kingdeezie]

It is hard to completely disagree with this person's assessment of the industry, because there is a lot of sketchy practice going on in this hobby.

I can not however completely agree with his assessment. I have been down that road, and with some research, and careful purchasing, spending more, does in fact get you more.

I started with an Emotiva XPA amplifier, and then moved to Odyssey mono blocks. I currently have Manley Neo Classic 250's. There is a night and day difference in build quality, and sound quality. I don't know what Manley profits on each pair of mono blocks, and I don't care. The amplifiers are rugged, built like tanks, work without fuss, sound great, and Manley supplies excellent customer service to me even though I purchased them used.

Not every company that is charging money for their product is ripping people off, and of course, I do believe there is a point of diminishing returns, but its certainly not Cambridge Audio.

YMMW. 

[TONEPUB]

I certainly hope no one is buying gear strictly based on our reviews.  My hope is always that we are helping people find stuff for their "short list" of things to listen to at a friend's house, showroom or hifi show.

Sounds to me like someone who got a crabby or lukewarm review somewhere and now he's got an axe to grind. And the stuff he's making doesn't seem terribly exciting.

There are a lot of great products at all price points. And while a DragonFly DAC or a Rega DAC ($249 and $995 respectively) as well as a number of other reasonably priced DAC's offer amazing performance, they don't sound like a dCS Vivaldi.  Not even close.  So, just like anything, it's up to you whether it's worth spending your hard earned money.  I've been to enough factories over the years to know that NONE of the major are just making overpriced crap to see what they can get away with.  Sorry, I can't buy that.

[orientalexpress]

i remember one audio company here on AC offer a pair NCore 1200 amp for $6400.00 a pair NOW he's want $9500.00 ship? ,i like to know what exactly did he add to justify $3100.00 price increased. and have the balls to call his product make in USA?WTF

[wushuliu]

Oh boy the usual frothing. Duh there are audio products that are overpriced. I think Tide detergent is ovepriced. Welcome to being a consumer. The difference is audiophiles/phools/whatever get just enough of a peek behind the curtain that they get filled with poutrage, then out goes the baby with the bathwater.

Given the sheer quantity of audio companies and products, of course there are overpriced over-marked blah blah blah. Has anyone actually bothered to count the number of companies and products in this hobby that caters to a minority? Hundreds? Thousands? Yet we continuously disregard the many who do offer performance for the money in these ranting threads. Never mind the nature of consumerism which DEMANDS that there are flagship products at astronomical prices. You know what, if I could sell an amp that costs $1k to build for $50k because I know it'll sell, guess what, I'll sell it. That's capitalism for ya. My customers gush over their purchase? Customers who by their income could just as well be brain surgeons and rocket scientists? What, am I gonna get on a high horse and call them idiots behind their backs? Nope. They believe they got their money's worth, they are happy, that's all that counts. I make some money to you know, give people jobs and health insurance and maybe raise a family with a roof over their heads.

I diy most of my gear because I believe THAT's where the biggest return for money is - but I'm not constantly going on and on about how just a small investment in time and equipment could allow someone to experience Nelson Pass for $700 or less.

There are unscrupulous people in audio as in every other facet of life. But let's not forget the many who strive constantly to bring to us the keys to audio nirvana - we each have different doors, no key maybe the same whether it's the amazing flat response of a $100 Primus 150 or a $100k behemoth.

And I notice the guru designers of many of our favorite components rarely engage in this nonsense debate and if they do it is nuanced and rarely black and white. We would do well to follow their lead.

[Letitroll98]

I certainly hope no one is buying gear strictly based on our reviews.  My hope is always that we are helping people find stuff for their "short list" of things to listen to at a friend's house, showroom or hifi show.

Sounds to me like someone who got a crabby or lukewarm review somewhere and now he's got an axe to grind. And the stuff he's making doesn't seem terribly exciting.

There are a lot of great products at all price points. And while a DragonFly DAC or a Rega DAC ($249 and $995 respectively) as well as a number of other reasonably priced DAC's offer amazing performance, they don't sound like a dCS Vivaldi.  Not even close.  So, just like anything, it's up to you whether it's worth spending your hard earned money.  I've been to enough factories over the years to know that NONE of the major are just making overpriced crap to see what they can get away with.  Sorry, I can't buy that.

I've heard the dCS Debussy at $11,499 and it was quite simply stunning, so I have no doubt the Vivaldi system at $110,000 is even better.  I might even go so far as to say the Debussy was worth it based on sound quality alone.  While certainly not a transformer and cap in a $4k box, one could wonder how much manufacturing/distribution costs vs art of design price there is in the product.  It would make me want to shop around for something in the, say, $2k range that might be 95% of the dCS Debussy, perhaps even better (I have no idea how one would go about comparison shopping at the Vivaldi level).  No one wants to rob anyone of their due return on investment, but as the price rises, so do the questions on value and available competitors.

That being said, despite the occasional re-badged Oppo at 10 times the price, and similar scams from a few manufacturers that give the industry a bad name, I agree with you that most are desperately trying to bring their production costs down to be able to offer more for less do-re-me.   

[medium jim]

In any industry or marketplace name cache results in expensive to the end user.  In many instances the name cache is warranted and the price is justified.  Unfortunately, there are many that are created by slick advertising and reviews that are dubious. 

The cream eventually rises, but in the meantime, many get hurt in the wallet along the way.  That is one reason I don't by into hype, especially on the items that get way too much by the way of fanaticism.  As pointed out, there is something to be said about build quality that goes a long way.

Jim

[wisnon]

I do think a lot of the prices for this gear are obscene and therefore the expectation bias runs high. Your perception of the sound quality runs parallel to the price tag. Boggles my mind to see these "hundred thousand" dollar speakers that don't look any more advanced than a $5,000 speaker.

 But you have companies now, like Emotiva, which don't hide anything, you go to their website, you can see the insides of the gear, and have  a gaining reputation for sound quality and value. Pez and Tyson said the Stealth 8's at RMAF sounded like "cost no object", "could be $10,000 for all I know."... and they are $1500 shipped.

 SVS is another example with their new speakers, we've all seen in that new thread. Tall, piano black finished floor standers with an advanced shape, and advanced crossover, good drivers, and dual opposed 8" subs, 4 of those total.. for $2,000 shipped with a 5 year warrantee, 45 day trial, and 1 year upgrade..
 
 It's moves like that one that will expose the chaff from the wheat.

 Tekton is another good one.. Pendragon, etc.. Very highly received and not stupid expensive.

 But yeah a lot of these prices are OBSCENE and when you ask for a reason as to why something should cost so much (like when I asked Tonepub why his speakers should be worth $140,000) you NEVER get a straight answer. Just "it sounds good and makes me happy" or something along those lines.  (and other posters will chime in and discourage any further questioning).

 Fishy indeed.

I think Ifi Audio products also fit in that value play niche.

These value companies are what will save the industry and bring the iPod generation over to high fidelity.

[JLM]

The AVi ADM-9T is exactly the kind of product needed to bridge the gap between audiophiles and everyday music loving folks. 

Good sound with minimal domestic (technical knowledge/visual/space) impact.

Exciting to dyed in the wool audiophiles?  Of course not, but fundamentally correct (active design with high definition DAC and built-in pre-amp).  Sorry but it removes the ancient hunter/gatherer function, so that we listen to music versus shopping for and guessing at the best pairing of equipment. 

And it intelligently bridges audio and lifestyle.  Just place on either side of your screen and enjoy.   

[Doublej]

It reads as if the guy has a beef with the company with the redacted name or a vested interest in Cambridge Audio.

[ratso]

i thought it read more like a guy who is tired of witnessing the overwhelming silliness and snobbery that exists in this little hobby. you mean these speakers AREN'T worth a quarter of a million dollars? 

[Doublej]

i thought it read more like a guy who is tired of witnessing the overwhelming silliness and snobbery that exists in this little hobby. you mean these speakers AREN'T worth a quarter of a million dollars? 

I may have had a similar opinion to yours if brands were left out the article but with it he's a shill for Cambridge Audio or has a grudge against Brand X. Just my opinion.

[geowak]

I agree with much of this. I think much of what we see is very over priced. I like to recognize the engineers and many who design the equipment who are fair and just with what is inside these boxes. Much of it are what I call
"insanely over-priced musical boxes of wires".

I was interested in the comment about the transformer that hummed. I had some equipment by a company that had a tremendous reputation. But once I acquired some pieces, to my surprise, THREE had hum problems. Now the designer told me I had other issues in the electrical system, but the transformers or the design was flawed. I think they were just cheap transformers that were put into the pieces. This came after extensive troubleshooting to isolate the problem. Also to my surprise, this could have all been done by the manufacturer when I sent the equipment back to him. He was too busy selling this junk to other fools like me!

So in the end it was an education indeed...

My hats off and respect goes to those who keep the profit margin reasonable, make a quality product and let the consumer know what is inside the equipment. Those who do not attempt to deceive the buyer.

[Folsom]

I personally find Hi-Fi audio, true Hi-Fi, to be the least rip-off around. The thing is that not everyone in the business is totally legit. A lot of the companies with forums here are. The people on Audiocircle talk about the gear that is interesting and reputable. There is a lot of openness towards parts used. We can believe markup is standard.

There are, however, a lot of very uninteresting audio companies. I see them listed at audio shops, dealers. They never seem to carry anything I would want to listen too. But I've seen some good gear at an audioshop we had here in town, problem is they went out of business! They never made the kind of markup all the time that some other ones do.

I love when people show you inside their gear. Most people aren't willing to DIY, so no big threat right? The question comes around, how much is intellectual information worth? If you have a patent, and want to charge more for new designs no one else has ever come up with, will people pay more? Will you not make a living if you sell it at too low of a markup? Then you have the trouble that most people can't understand appropriate markup because they are use to employees of the different places getting paid slave wages.

The article kind of makes me think he is aiming to make people buy cheap crap from china because the price is lower but the profit is higher.... Even though I can't afford a $4,500 amplifier, I know for sure many, many amplifiers are worth that with a perfectly normal markup. That article seems like it is villinizing anything that cost more than 200 quid.

[Early B.]

The guy mentioned high end audio reviewers as being a big part of the problem. If I'm in the market for a good computer, I talk to an IT guy or DIY guy who knows about computers. Likewise, if I want to know about a car before I purchase it, I'll go to reputable websites and read professional reviews by folks who know about cars. High end audio reviewers are basically guys with access to nice gear and a passion for music. Most of them don't design audio gear, and many are not familiar with how stuff actually works. They often quote the manufacturer's marketing techno-babble and rarely dissect it.

Ninety-nine percent of reviews are positive, and I expect the vast majority of "high end" components to sound good anyway. So what? What I really want to know is "value." What is the build quality? What is the cost of parts compared to the retail price? What is the designer's philosophy and what was his intention in building the component? What trade-offs were made to keep it at the price point? What after-market upgrades can be made to make it better? What is the expected resale value? What are the anticipated synergy issues? How does this item compare to others in the same price point? What other buying options should I consider? What is the warranty? Is it transferable? Describe the customer service. Etc. More importantly, what do current owners say about the product?