[Quiet Earth]

Have you ever been frustrated with everything it takes to make a moving coil cartridge sound just right, and then gone back to the simplicity of a moving magnet cartridge? 

If you have, what moving magnet cartridge made you feel like you weren't really missing out on what a moving coil can do?

[TONEPUB]

I haven't gone back, but have added a few tonearms with MM carts.  I really like the Ortofon VMS 20 mk II.  If you can find an NOS model, they are only about $150.  Someone here told me about them a couple of years ago and it was fantastic!

Also, big fan of the Clearaudio Maestro Wood.

The Grado Moving Iron carts are pretty much fun too...  And you can get them in 2.5mv versions.

Shure V15vmxr is still not bad either if you can find one that someone doesn't want a fortune for....

[Letitroll98]

I'll second the lower output Grados as well.  You do need a high gain pre that still loads at 47kOhms, not always easy to find.  Their lower internal inductance makes them virtual clones to MC's as far as immunity to capacitative loading.  And they sound about a zillion times sweeter than all but the most expensive MC's.  You need to PM BaMorin for the latest word on vintage and high end Grados.

[sts9fan]

I switched from a Zu Denon to Ortofon 2M Black and have not looked back.

[rollo]

Have you ever been frustrated with everything it takes to make a moving coil cartridge sound just right, and then gone back to the simplicity of a moving magnet cartridge? 

If you have, what moving magnet cartridge made you feel like you weren't really missing out on what a moving coil can do?

   Yes but not for that reason. No matter what design , VTA, Azimuth, speed and tracking force rule in set up. All one needs is the correct phonostage. Meaning enough gain for the MC.
    Was using a Linn Arkiv with a MM phono stage. Not a good match. Since it is a world class MM stage I tried a high output MC instead. A goldenote Boboli to be exact. Tried several step up with the Linn but no cigar. My experience anyway.


charles
     

[jimdgoulding]

New Year's resolution is to get my second table and arm with a MC Koetsu Black* up and running so then I can say.  Currently using a Grado MM Sonata Reference on a Nottingham deck and have been very pleased.

*a rather vintage one.

[Quiet Earth]

I switched from a Zu Denon to Ortofon 2M Black and have not looked back.

Thank you sir for your straight-up reply to my off the wall question. Much appreciated.

TONE and Letitroll,
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I will study that. 

Charles,
Yes, I agree. But assuming you have given it all that....

Currently using a Grado MM Sonata Reference on a Nottingham deck and have been very pleased.

Thank you brother Jim. No hum with the Grado on the Nott?


The reason for my strange question is that I recently listened to an excellent MC cart. w/ step up transformer and was impressed. But I'm not sure I want to go down that road or lay down that much green to spin records. I would like to see just how far a good moving magnet cart w/ simple phono stage (i.e., low gain) can go before I succumb to the hi fi sound (and cost) of LOMC territory. And then there's the sound....

I think I'm looking for a meatier, more musically substantial sound from my record collection. Less hi-fi and air, if that makes any sense. I think I'm about done with my Blackbird. Time to move on.

Thanks again for letting me ramble. I appreciate the words of wisdom. 

[jimdgoulding]

No hum here, Quiet.  Some reviewers think very highly of the high-output Clearaudio Maestro Wood.  I rather like how they describe the sound.

[andyr]

Thank you brother Jim. No hum with the Grado on the Nott?

I use a Grado Reference Reference1 on my LP12 (the top HOMM, at 4mV).

Absolutely no hum from the Grado. 

The reason for my strange question is that I recently listened to an excellent MC cart. w/ step up transformer and was impressed. But I'm not sure I want to go down that road or lay down that much green to spin records. I would like to see just how far a good moving magnet cart w/ simple phono stage (i.e., low gain) can go before I succumb to the hi fi sound (and cost) of LOMC territory. And then there's the sound....

I think I'm looking for a meatier, more musically substantial sound from my record collection. Less hi-fi and air, if that makes any sense. I think I'm about done with my Blackbird. Time to move on.

I bought the Grado RR1 because I heard it in a friend's system and it sounded absolutely marvellous.  If you want "meatier" and "musically substantial" then the Grado RR1 - and the next one down, I believe - will certainly deliver.

In some respects, I prefer its sound to my Benz LP ... it maybe gives up a bit in delicate HFs? 

Regards,

Andy

[Guy 13]

Hi Quiet Earth and all Audio Circle members.
Not long after purchasing my Rega P3 matted wuth an Exact MM (5-7mv) cartridge I wanted to improve my set up, so, I've purchased a Benz Micro Gold Hi output MC cartridge with 4.3mv output, paid 425 USD.
When I've tried to install it, I found out that I needed a riser adaptor because the Benz Micro MC cartridge was much higher/thicker than the Rega Exact,
I had to pay 25 USD for a small cheap plastic adaptor,
I had to take out the Rega arm and fit the plastic donut, then,
I thought that donut and with the Benz Micro hi-output (4.3mv) it would be enough voltage to drive my Bellari VP-129, well, I was wrong.
When I realized that I had to buy a higher gain phono pre-amplifier, I gave up.
I put back my Rega Exact MM and since that time, I am happy with my set-up.
Maybe, probably and almost sure that the Benz Micro Gold hi-output is a better sounding cartridge, but I did not wanted to spend the extra $ $ $.
I still have the Benz Micro Gold cartridge with about one minute of usage,
it will be for sale when I get back to Canada.
I will loose money by selling it, that's why I am not in a hurry to recuperate my investment.
Guy 13 

[Soundminded]

Moving Magnet MM cartridges and Moving Coil MC cartridges work on exactly the same principle.  When a wire cuts through magnetic lines of flux current is generated in the wire that will circulate if the wire is terminated in a load, that is forms a circuit. Coils of wire mean more lines of flux are cut for a given motion increasing the current and voltage. The only difference is that in an MM cartridge, the coils are fixed (usually 4 of them) and the magnet is moved by the stylus/cantilever while in the MC cartridge the magnets are fixed and the stylus/cantilever moves the coils. There are other types. For example I think Grado uses a "moving iron" principle which sounds to me like what's called a variable reluctance cartridge. Both the coils and magnets are fixed, the moving element changes the magnet coupling in a magnetic circuit.

So what's better? The one with the lowest mass the stylus must move. MC cartridges must keep mass down by reducing the number of turns of very fine wire in the coils. MMs need only a single highly magnetized precision machined and aligned magnet which can be very small. It's not the total mass of the cartridge that matters, it's the dynamic mass, the mass the stylus must move. The heavier the moving mass, the more force must be applied to keep it in the groove and the stronger, stiffer, heavier and less compliant the suspension and cantilever has to be to support the weight. For these reasons, IMO MM cartridges beat MC cartridges every which way there is.  But there's another penalty MC cartridge users pay for very low output (besides the much higher cost to manufacture MC cartridges) and that is substantially more preamplifier gain. This means much more expensive electronics to achieve the same signal to noise ratio and that's especially difficult when you are considering tube preamplifier stages which are inherently noisier than transistors for multiple reasons. 

What about the sound? In terms of non linear distortion caused by abilility to track the record properly there's no contest. MM cartridges will track better at substantially lower tracking forces which means less record and stylus wear. What about linear (FR) distortion. You are going to apply 40 db of RIAA equalization to the signal. MM cartridges can be made with extended flat response to at least 50 khz if it is needed (check the specs for Empire 4000 D/III on Vinyl Engine for example. You won't find any CD-4 MC cartridges I'm aware of.) However that's totally unnecessary. MM cartridges can also be designed with flat FR or for a high frequency peak of 5 db or more for use in inexpensive mass market audio systems that had high end rolled off speakers to begin with. Further equalization can make the cartridge have any FR you want them to.

Did I ever switch back from MC to MM? No, I never left MM in the first place.   

[Ericus Rex]

I think I'm looking for a meatier, more musically substantial sound from my record collection. Less hi-fi and air, if that makes any sense. I think I'm about done with my Blackbird. Time to move on.

Sounds to me like you're looking for the Grado sound.

[SteveFord]

QuietEarth,
When I picked up a 2nd Well Tempered I was wondering what to do for the cartridge.
I have an Ortofon 2M Black on my first Well Tempered which I like but I wanted to try something different. 
I ended up calling the Ortofon distributor here in the US and he said if I wanted a moving coil to go with the Cadenza Black.
I told him that was out of my price range and he kept circling back to the Candenza Black.
After a few minutes he finally said if you like the sound of the 2M Black and you want a moving coil you're going to want a Cadenza Black.  Otherwise, just stick with the 2M Black which is what many people do and they're perfectly happy.
I said thank you, hung up, bought another 2M Black and I'm perfectly happy.
Does this help?

[rollo]

John Grado holds MC design patents and makes MM cart Hmmmm. That always puzzled me. Recently have been intriuged by Soundsmith moving iron cart. Have tried one yet but have heard some. No complaints really good tonality.
    Just make sure whatever cart you select matches your arm. Then set load to 47K and set capacitance. The only tricky deal is getting the capacitance correct.



charles

[TheChairGuy]

Been around the block a few times on that question myself.

I hear what I think the benefits touted by the low output moving coil lovers groups....the strikingly fine detail of each instrument and or voice; but I hear the detriment(s) as well - there's a certain falseness to the sound they make. While they make interesting sounds - they fail in part to make accurate sounds.

My opinion only - but my opinion, nonetheless.

The van Alstine Longhorned Grado Gold1 with upgraded stylus from earlier G1+ cartridge never fails to purse a smile to my lips.  It's the most natural sounding cartridge I own and it sounds free/unfettered.  The soundstage it projects is huge - holographic in spades - and it's got fantastic bass for those tracks that just begs for it.  The treble sounds right, too - a bell sounds like a bell, etc.

For piano - it has no equal in my collection of 15 or so cartridges.

Maybe the best overall cartridge I've had the pleasure of auditioning in my system is a Pickering low output.  Because of the same hassles as you mention - its only 0.3mv output - it's been sitting unused for years now.

The next best have been the Denon (MC) carts: low output DL-S1 was divine and reasonably priced but a hassle to match gain with at such low outputs. I hear much of the same benefits without the hassle from the hi output DL-160 with van den Hul boron stylus and that's on my other table.

Hassle free and enjoying the music with my modded Grado and re-tipped Denon. Both hi output.

The only step up for me - both sound quality and less life hassle - is the strain gauge system from Soundsmith. At $5500+.....I'm going to wait that urge thru a bit longer

[Delta Wave]

I haven't gone back, but have added a few tonearms with MM carts.  I really like the Ortofon VMS 20 mk II.  If you can find an NOS model, they are only about $150.  Someone here told me about them a couple of years ago and it was fantastic!

Also, big fan of the Clearaudio Maestro Wood.

The Grado Moving Iron carts are pretty much fun too...  And you can get them in 2.5mv versions.

Shure V15vmxr is still not bad either if you can find one that someone doesn't want a fortune for....

I have one of those Ortofons as well, it's a fantastic cartridge and they still make new styli for it.

I've never used a LOMC because of the insane $$$ but I use two HOMCs and never really had any difficulties with getting them to optimal set-up.

[Photon46]

Another "under the radar" MM overachiever is the Garrott Optim FGS. They aren't imported into the USA, but can be ordered from Australia. I've very much enjoyed mine and think it's a shame they aren't better known in the US.

http://www.decibelhifi.com.au/garrott-optim-fgs/

[jimdgoulding]

Any you guys ever own a Fidelity Research MC from Japan?  One of the old heavy metal encased ones.  Just curious about your impressions if so.

[cindy_leigh]

I have a PS Audio GCPH phono preamp.  Guess what I had to do when I changed to 0.4mV MC?  I had to flip the gain knob to a higher setting and the load knob down to a lower setting.  It wasn't complicated.  The upgrade in sound quality as compared to my MM cartridge was huge.  I'm not switching back.

[Quiet Earth]

Thanks everyone. Lots to think about here. I have considered the Grado house sound and all of the other recommendations generously given to me. You guys are great! I'm going to try and figure out what type of sound I expect to hear when I play my records and make a move in that direction. (With respect to cost and user friendliness of course.) This seems like a good new year's resolution for me. 


Soundminded,
Your explanation is pretty good, but you forgot to mention the lower inherent inductance of a LOMC, and HOMC compared to MM. I think this is something that I need to reconsider when matching cartridge to phono stage and cartridge to arm (because or resonances?). As of now, I really notice the rising energy level in the higher frequencies of my Blackbird, so much so that i have actually considered a parametric E.Q. I know that's not the right way to do it, and it would be better to start over and look at arm and cartridge matching first. Then phono stage selection perhaps?. Synergy.

 Well, that's what's on my mind at the moment. Maybe someone can jump in and bail me out. I have all year....

Cindy,
You are right. It can be just that simple. I'm nit picking again, and wondering what else is possible. Welcome to AC!