[rollo]

  Are reviews of audio components moot ?



charles

[DTB300]

Unless you are VERY familiar with a reviewer and their tastes, a review could take you in the wrong direction.  When I used to read a lot of audio rags, I would find equipment and reviewers which matched up with my opinions/results.  These are the reviewers who's reviews would be of benefit to me for future purchases.

I think reviews are just another opinion on a product, sometimes a very educated opinion, sometimes not.

For myself, I use reviews as a starting point to see what is out there, then I try to get out and hear the equipment myself.  Sometimes this will require many hours of driving, but in the end will all prove worth it.

[rollo]

It would be interesting to see their rooms and how they are set up. I think most would be very surprised to see how they listen. Years ago the Absolute Sound printed diagrams of the reviewers rooms.



charles
     

[jtwrace]

It would be interesting to see their rooms and how they are set up. I think most would be very surprised to see how they listen. Years ago the Absolute Sound printed diagrams of the reviewers rooms.



charles
   

I could care less what it looks like.  The only thing I care about are the measurements most do NOT do.   

[rollo]

I could care less what it looks like.  The only thing I care about are the measurements most do NOT do.   

   Agree on the measurements. Remember Stereoreview ?


charles

[dBe]

I could care less what it looks like.  The only thing I care about are the measurements most do NOT do.   

I remember Julian Hirsch's reviews.  Hirsch/Houk Labs was Julian's garage.  Many good thing come out of garages    His? Unfortunately, not so much.  You have to know the testing and measurement methodology to judge if it is valid.  Like the accountant said: "2+2? How much do you want it to be?"

I watched a 'revered reviewer' at Stereophile move a loudspeaker around in the room and move the mic around on a MLSSA to get the response curve that he wanted.  I like measurements.  What I want to know is "how does it sound?"  Different strokes, both valid.  Ya' gotta have measurements, but they have to sound good, too.  I'm old enough to remember when the first transistor gear came out with .01% distortion figures.  Sounded BAD.  The testers didn't know what they were looking for.  Slew rates, THD, IMD, distortion profiles, distortion readings on complex tones and a bunch of other stuff didn't figure into the equation.  Fortunately there are people like Ed Meitner and others to find new criteria.

YMMV,

Dave

[jtwrace]

Sorry Dave but a bad measuring room can't and does not sound good.  I'll still take room measurements.   

[dBe]

Sorry Dave but a bad measuring room can't and does not sound good.  I'll still take room measurements.   

Oh, yeah.  Absolutely!  The room is THE most important interconnect in the system and it has to be right to sound good.  That is why treatments are necessary.  A room with bad measurements - multiples of common dimensions - just suck and are very hard to get to 'play well'. 

The Cardas Method works pretty good:http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring

There are a few ways to get "there".  The SWARM is a good thing for problem rooms.  Gotta Love The Guy.

Dave

[jtwrace]

Oh, yeah.  Absolutely!  The room is THE most important interconnect in the system and it has to be right to sound good.  That is why treatments are necessary.  A room with bad measurements - multiples of common dimensions - just suck and are very hard to get to 'play well'. 

The Cardas Method works pretty good:http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring

There are a few ways to get "there".  The SWARM is a good thing for problem rooms.  Gotta Love The Guy.

Dave

Again, measurements mean everything.  Room treatments and Swarm could help but don't mean anything unless you measure.  You must measure to know what you NEED.  Most of the time, putting some treatments will help but an educated use is best.  Measure, treat, measure, tweak, measure and maybe a multiple sub system, measure, measure and more measuring.  That's what it takes.  Even with the best designed room.

[dBe]

Yep.  True story.  With the availability of good, free software that can run on any platform you can predict, measure and precisely place treatments for optimal sound reproduction.  Things have come a long way along these lines.  The apps availble for my iPad are pretty amazing.  With "real" measurement gear you can do anthing.  It is getting easier and cheaper every day.

Dave

[jtwrace]

Are you saying simulation? 

[dBe]

Are you saying simulation?

Only as a starting point.  You have to have real numbers read in room to get to the desired design target. 

One guy on another forum years ago used to just tick me off with all of his room/crossover/frequency response models.  "I SIM'd, so it must be" was his by-line.  Nothing beats real numbers for getting things correct.  I am an empiricist.  If it doesn't work in real time/life, it isn't right.  Know what I mean?  Predictors are only that: predictors.  What happens in the real world is what matters to me.  Ergo: How does it sound?  I think we approach the same problems from the same directions, but with different mindsets.  We ( the collective "we") have to use the science to get the idea right.  We have to use the ear to tell us if the science is right.  That is the BIG issue in aural perception.  It ALL has to agree.

This is a great topic for conversation, huh?

Dave

[SoCalWJS]

So there are some simulation programs out there? Any of them any good?

Might be interesting to see (for me as a learning execrise) how it works - lay out my room, run some simulations, then hook up my measuring setup and see how it correlates. Try a different sim, move speakers to that location, then measure again.

Also see if it sounds better if the sim says it should (totally subjective, but I trust me to be honest with myself  )(there have been many times I thought I was making a change for the positive and been disappointed with the results - even had the reverse true on a couple of occasions  )

[dBe]

So there are some simulation programs out there? Any of them any good?

Might be interesting to see (for me as a learning execrise) how it works - lay out my room, run some simulations, then hook up my measuring setup and see how it correlates. Try a different sim, move speakers to that location, then measure again.

Also see if it sounds better if the sim says it should (totally subjective, but I trust me to be honest with myself  )(there have been many times I thought I was making a change for the positive and been disappointed with the results - even had the reverse true on a couple of occasions  )

A few years ago a bunch of guys got together and put some simple spreadsheet programs out under the guise of the FRD Consortium.  Good dudes: Jeff Bagby, Paul Verdone, JohnK and others.  They became a mainstay for amateur speaker designers to build good sounding speakers.  Also in the mix are a few programs that are predictors.  Here is a link:

http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/frdgroup.htm

Here are some others:

http://www.softoxi.com/frequency-response-calculator.html

http://jhbrandt.net/FirstReflectionCalculator.xls

http://jhbrandt.net/RoomModeCalculatorSAE.xls

http://phet.colorado.edu/en/simulation/wave-interference

There is a lot of freeware out there.  All you have to do is look for it.

Dave

[HAL]

Another good room simulation program is CARA 2.2 Plus.  Used that a lot with speaker setups in my room with very good results.

You have to model your speaker in the program, so not everything is possible.  Was able to model the LS-6's, but not the LS-9's due to the number of drivers.  No models for open baffle speakers are available.

I was able to model my Von Schweikert Research VR-8's in it and found a very good placement setup.
 

[dBe]

Another good room simulation program is CARA 2.2 Plus.  Used that a lot with speaker setups in my room with very good results.

You have to model your speaker in the program, so not everything is possible.  Was able to model the LS-6's, but not the LS-9's due to the number of drivers.  No models for open baffle speakers are available.

I was able to model my Von Schweikert Research VR-8's in it and found a very good placement setup.

+1 on CARA.  It isn't cheap, but it is very effective once you get past the learning curve.

Dave