[guest1121]

I've been considering a speaker upgrade for quite some time now, but have held off because I haven't been sure that new speakers would make a noticeable difference in my "less-than-acoustically-optimal" HT.  You see, my home theater is essentially the family room in our home and it has a lot of things that are considered "taboo" by audiophiles and home theater enthusiasts.  I was planning on waiting to purchase speakers until we moved and I had a proper room (a room in a basement specifically designed for movies & music) but at this point it looks like it will be a while until we move.  So, I am reconsidering the idea of buying speakers.

I'm considering the RM30s.  However, before I take the plunge and buy any speaker, I would like to have a sense of whether I will hear a difference when I put the new speakers in my room.  Given my acoustic issues, I'm not sure if an upgrade will do me any good.

First, current equipment:

Definitive Technology speakers
BP10B Mains
C1 Center Channel
BP2X Side Surrounds
DefTech 12" sub (forget the model #)

Lexicon MC-12B Digital Controller
Bryston 4BSST
Bryston 9BSST
Panasonic RP-91 DVD-V/DVD-A Player

Here is a picture of my room:



Some issues with which I have to contend:

1. I have a loveseat on the side right wall that is in the way of my right main speaker.

2. Though it may not be obvious from the picture, there is a short "wall" that juts out in front of the fireplace (towards the curtain) that seems to rob depth from the left half of the soundstage.

3. The entrance into the room is just in front of the loveseat on the right side of the room.

4. As the picture shows, there is a sliding glass door which is covered by a heavy curtain

5. To the left of the fireplace (not visible on the picture) is a window that is mostly covered by curtains and a room-darkening blind.

6. The room is in no way acoustically treated, aside from any ancillary benefits I may be receiving from the current configuration (if any).  Given that the room has to serve double-duty as our family room, it's doubtful I can do too much in the way of treatments unless they're extremely inconspicuous.

Note that the sub is on the floor in front of the loveseat (not visible in the picture), behind and outside of the right main speaker.

If I were to upgrade speakers, one option is RM-30Ms for the mains, the RM30C for center, and perhaps a VMPS or SVS sub package (I'd probably keep the BP2Xs as surrounds for now).  However, before I make any purchases, I'd really like your opinion of whether the upgrade will be noticeable in terms of sonics.  Will buying better speakers (VMPS or otherwise) make things sound better, or is my room a lost cause?  You can be honest; my feelings won't be hurt.

If it matters, right now I primarily watch movies and don't listen to music because music has not sounded very good in my room - bad soundstage, not great clarity/detail, etc.  However, I'd like to listen to more music, if only I could get it to sound better!

By the way, in terms of surround speakers:  the point of view of the picture is from the primary listening position, which is a sofa that is about 6" from the back wall of the room, and about 15' from the speakers.  This, combined with the acoustic obstacles listed above, makes a 7.1 configuration almost impossible for me, as much as I'd like to believe otherwise.    So for now, I just want to get 2-channel and multi-channel music sounding as good as it possibly can.  If I end up squeezing in another set of speakers somewhere, that can only improve things (especially movies), right?  

Thanks for your help folks![/list]

[Woodsea]

Given your current set-up.
A. 626r's with auricaps as mains
B. RM30c as center channel
C. New matching sub that goes with RM30's.
Have the left main on top of sub and the right on solid platform DIY of same height.
This will give you upgradeability if you want RM30's, 40's or RM/X as needed for new family room in excutriatingly expensive new house (that will of course pay for itself in the long run )
Then you can move the 626's to the rear or in the bedroom double    

[guest1121]

Thanks for the reply!  Your comment about the price of homes in our general area is certainly right on...what an eye-opening experience.

I guess what I really would like to know is whether any speaker upgrade (regardless of what brand or model) would make a sonic difference in my room.  Will I be able to appreciate an upgrade for its sonic improvements or is it merely throwing money at the wrong problem?  I use the RM-30 as an example though one could substitute any high-end speaker into this discussion.

[Woodsea]

The answer is a resounding YES.  The ribbons and the tweeter are exquisite.  Voices are right on, either in movies or music.

[Tyson]

One nice thing about speakers with a narrower dispersion pattern (like the VMPS RM series) is that they interact less with the room, and thus are more easily made to sound good in a less than perfect room.  That said, you might look to put up some discreet 8th nerve acoustical treatments, specifically a room pack.

[John Casler]

Hi Scott,

What Tyson states is spot on.  The difference will be "night and day".

The design of the Def Tech speaker is "room interactive" where the VMPS ribbons are not.

That is, the DTs are "bipolar" in nature, which means they fire both front and back in phase, to create more of a "hazy" or diffused soundfield.

The VMPS have a rather reduced dispersion and a more precise soundfield.

What will this mean?

It means that you'll have a more precise localization of sounds and music.  The sound will not emanate from a sonic haze, but out of the "blackness".

This will especially be noticable on certain music, but also something you'll hear in movies too.

[RickRichardson]

Your room looks vaguely familiar, except for the speakers.  Here is mine.



and here is the back of the room -



I am using RM-30M's as L&R and an RM-30-C for the center.  I had numerous different speakers before, but these VMPS are clearly the best sounding in my 14 X 24 room.  The RM-30C center is killer for clarity, transparency and dialog intelligibility - clearly better, in my opinion, than a single VMPS 626R or an LRC.  The center speaker is by far the most important for HT.  It carries the critical dialog and more sound information that any of the other speakers.  Having great L&R speakers is essential for two channel music, but unless the Center speaker is a match, HT sound suffers horribly.  

I would suggest going for three RM-30's.  You have excellent electronics, you need speakers that can do them justice.  

As you can see, I do not have matching VMPS surround speaker.  I do not have the room above the window or sliding glass door.  I would love to have VMPS for surrounds, but just can't do it.  My next move is to replace the two rear speakers with a single BG 220 DX.  My Cinepro amp only has 6 channels, and the 220 is really as wide as two monitors together.  

I feel the order of importance in an HT system is 1) Center, 2) L&R, 3) sub, 4) [side]surrounds, 5) rear surrounds.  Start with the most important first - a world class center speaker.

[guest1121]

One nice thing about speakers with a narrower dispersion pattern (like the VMPS RM series) is that they interact less with the room, and thus are more easily made to sound good in a less than perfect room. That said, you might look to put up some discreet 8th nerve acoustical treatments, specifically a room pack.

Tyson, thanks, that makes sense.  I looked into the 8th nerve website and it looks like a possibility, but I'm wondering how it will help me tame the wall that juts out between the fireplace and the left main speaker (to the left of the curtains), as shown below:



Do you think the treatments would help the left-side soundstage depth, or will they merely improve clarity (still a very worthy reason for treatments)?

John & Woodsea, thank you too for your insights - very helpful!

Rick, LOL, our rooms are pretty similar!  Here are some additional pictures to show you what I have to work with:

Front Right Corner (Sub / Entrance to HT)


Rear Right Corner (Surround Speaker & note wall to right of curtain)


Rear of Room (Surrounds & Seating)


Left Rear / HT Entrance


Thanks again guys...any other thoughts?

[Gordy]

You could consider replacing the love seat with two rattan/wicker type chairs, they would be far more 'transparent'.  Ikea has several that seem nice, check out the Oland or Poang, both are very inexpensive.  I've checked out the fabric version of the Poang, quite comfy!

[JoshK]

Scott C,

Great pictures.  Email Nathan at 8th Nerve with those pictures and he will help you figure out what should work for your room.  They will definitely help in many ways.  That fireplace wall doesn't seem too difficult to contend with.  It also looks as if you have some leanience (sic) in decor which helps a great deal.  

Do you listen to a lot of music or is this primarily a movie system?  Not that it matters in terms of whether the RM30s will benefit you a lot but it may guide us somewhat on best solutions.  I think Tyson said it best on why the RM30s will be an improvement.  I agree wholeheartedly.  I have never really liked the diffuse sound long term.  

Josh

[guest1121]

You could consider replacing the love seat with two rattan/wicker type chairs, they would be far more 'transparent'.

Gordy, thanks for the idea.  But truth be told, what I'd really like to do is get rid of that loveseat altogether to open up that end of the soundstage a little more.  I just don't think my wife will go for that since the room serves double-duty as a family room in addition to a home theater.  I might ask her about it since we don't do too much entertaining down there...if nothing else, that request should generate a followed by some hearty laughter...

Josh, thanks.  I have taken your (and Tyson's and John Casler's) advice and have emailed Nathan at Eighth Nerve to get his take on how his treatments could help my room.   I think I could get away with putting those on the walls as long as they are placed in such a way as to retain some semblance of a WAF.  That being said, this room is the one room in the house where I've asked for and have been given a lot of leniency in decorating - that's why it may be possible to use treatments if they are reasonably aesthetically acceptable to my better half.

At any rate, I am looking forward to hearing back from him, and I'll post a summary of his thoughts here, if/when I do get a response.  I hope you're right about the fireplace wall - I'd love to get some left-side soundstage depth back. I wonder if the drapes over the sliding glass door are also contributing to the shallowness?

Right now I use the room almost exclusively for movies, but I know this is due to the fact that 2-channel audio sounds so atrocious in my room.  I'd like to change that and use the room for music listening, too.  So, I want to pick up speakers that will do exceptionally well in 2-channel, hi-res audio multi-channel, and home theater multi-channel environments.  If I were to go with VMPS speakers, I think I'd opt for RM30M's up front, with an RM30C in the center, and a "Larger" sub in the corner.  This would give me a system I know I can use in a medium-sized dedicated home theater someday.  As for surrounds, I'm not really sure what I'll do, or what is even logistically possible in the current room.  For the moment, the existing surrounds will stay put until I can dream of another, better way to go.

As for my current speakers, I thought they were pretty cool when I got them about 7 years ago, but as I've gotten better at "listening" over the past 4 years, I've learned to really dislike that "diffuse" sound too.  Time to move on for me, I think...

[ctviggen]

In my room, I'm going to do a combination of Eighth Nerve stuff and stuff from:

http://www.realtraps.com/

Currently, I don't have any room treatments and have only rudimentary tools for determining frequency response.  I have a CD with test tones from 1000kHz to 20Hz.  I definitely have some humps.

[wshuff]

Scott,

As you know, I had no regrets leaving behind my BP10 fronts and CLR1000 for a VMPS setup with the 626R/LRC/626R.  My room is larger than yours, but with some of the same problems, i.e., a big window (plus on the opposite wall I have a floor to ceiling mirror).  I'll say I agree with what you've already been told...the VMPS will be far more precise when compared to the way that the Def Techs splatter the sound.

As for your pictures, what do you have sitting on top of your BP10s?  Horn speakers?  Space heaters?

[Rory B.]

Scott-C,

I noticed something about your setup. You have Definitive Tech speakers which are very hard to place to get the sound just right, due to weirdnesses of the bipolar effect. Any toe-in of the speakers would be a no-no. But since the RM30M's are an all forward-radiating speaker, with ribbon panel drivers, a little toe-in  so that the sound avoids the couch is not only feasible, but may even improve the sound. If you use RM30s, get the RM30C for your center channel but if you eventually use the 626R's, you should get the Large Ribbon Center which is basically a 626R set sideways as a center channel but with the midrange panel oriented vertically for better dispersion. Then, grab a Larger subwoofer for LFE and you're set. If you're just upgrading from dynamic drivers I don't think you need to be worried with the FST upgrade - the supertweeters that come standard should be a big improvement over the dynamic tweeters in your Def Techs.

[guest1121]

In my room, I'm going to do a combination of Eighth Nerve stuff and stuff from:

http://www.realtraps.com/

Hi Bob, thanks for that link.  Those RealTraps look pretty nice.  I do wish they were a little cheaper (of course!).  I like the fact that they're not permanent (makes it easy to take them down so the house shows better when we sell it someday).  But, I'm unsure if I would need them in a dedicated HT and as such, I'm not sure if I can justify the money.  I will have to think about this one.

Currently, I don't have any room treatments and have only rudimentary tools for determining frequency response. I have a CD with test tones from 1000kHz to 20Hz. I definitely have some humps.

Which CD do you have?  I've been meaning to pick up one of these for ages and now seems like the right time, so I can better understand the room's acoustic issues (humps/dips).

As for your pictures, what do you have sitting on top of your BP10s? Horn speakers? Space heaters?

Stacy, good to hear from you friend.  LOL, I was thinking yesterday that I should have explained those "contraptions" sitting on top of my DefTechs.  Your first guess was correct; those are ElectroVoice Sx80 horn speakers I borrowed from a friend of mine.  He was curious to get my opinion of them and I was anxious to hear how a monopolar speaker would sound in my room.  I was impressed enough with them that the BP10s have been serving duty as speaker stands for the past couple months.  They cost next to nothing, as I understand it, and are an improvement over the DefTechs in terms of imaging and soundstage.  They're a little analytical, but still more enjoyable to listen to, especially for music (as opposed to HT).  Not my dream speaker but fun nonetheless.

But since the RM30M's are an all forward-radiating speaker, with ribbon panel drivers, a little toe-in so that the sound avoids the couch is not only feasible, but may even improve the sound. If you use RM30s, get the RM30C for your center channel but if you eventually use the 626R's, you should get the Large Ribbon Center which is basically a 626R set sideways as a center channel but with the midrange panel oriented vertically for better dispersion. Then, grab a Larger subwoofer for LFE and you're set. If you're just upgrading from dynamic drivers I don't think you need to be worried with the FST upgrade - the supertweeters that come standard should be a big improvement over the dynamic tweeters in your Def Techs.

RoryB, thanks - I agree with you regarding the toe-in issue; that's something I was thinking about as well.  I'm sure some toe-in would be an advantage in my room, with the right speaker.

[wshuff]

Scott, if the horn speakers sound better than the Def Techs, I think that answers your question.  The only decision is what you want to spend now, versus when you get in the new place.  I know I was sold on the idea of replacing my Def Techs after I put a little monitor on top and heard a difference that I liked.

[ctviggen]

Hi Scott,

I have a 3-CD set put out by Stereophile.  One of the CDs has the test tones (although all the CDs have test songs).  As you said, all the stuff to make the room better is expensive, and I'm strapped for cash!  I'll probably save up to buy a better analyzer and then start adding some acoustical sound stuff. I'm going to try to do a "dead end/live end" room, but I really can't that much.  But, we'll see!

[guest1121]

Bob, it sure is an expensive (but enjoyable) hobby, isn't it?    I don't really have any acoustic analysis equipment whatsoever but I have some friends who do and I may see if they would like to help me diagnose my room one of these days.  That's a lot cheaper than buying the equipment.  As for the treatments themselves, I'd love to put some up but don't want to invest too much money in them since I don't know how long we'll be in this house (of course, I've been using that excuse for about 2 years now...).

Speaking of treatments, I have not heard back from Eighth Nerve yet.  I emailed Nathan at the "info@eighthnerve.com" email address from their site.  Does anyone have Nathan's direct email address?  Perhaps you wouldn't mind PM'ing it to me if you have it...

Meanwhile, I took the plunge and ordered a VMPS speaker package:

Mains:   Pair RM30M / TRT / 6.5M Megawoofer Upgrade
Center: RM30C / TRT / 6.5M Megawoofer Upgrade
Sub:     Larger Sub / Megawoofer upgrade

My thinking is that this package will serve me well now and also in a dedicated HT someday.  I put some thought into the cap and megawoofer upgrades and decided I didn't want any regrets down the road.  I'm famous (maybe more infamous) for second-guessing myself post-purchase and I wanted to try to avoid any buyers' remorse.

Can't wait to get the new speakers and hear them in my room!

Thanks to all of you - I really appreciate your input and used it to help me come to this decision.

[wshuff]

I look forward to hearing what you think of the new toys.  I've been very happy with VMPS and Lexicon.  Now, move those Def Techs to the sides and our rooms will almost look alike again.

[guest1121]

I look forward to hearing what you think of the new toys. I've been very happy with VMPS and Lexicon. Now, move those Def Techs to the sides and our rooms will almost look alike again.

Thanks, and remember you're welcome to come by for a listen next time you're in the area.

It is funny how our equipment tastes and upgrade path seem to track so closely.  I should ask you to stop getting new stuff so I don't have to!  

You know, now that I'm looking at my HT, I am going to have to put in some serious thought as to how to do the surrounds.  Maybe there is a way to go 7.1 as a result of this purchase...