[MaxCast]

Over a year ago I picked up a JVC QL-A7 semi through craigs list.


Original thread with some good info on the deck by AC members:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=97373.msg975855#msg975855

When I brought it home my two boys were very interested.  When I finally got it up and running it was, "dad, what are you going to do with the old table?"  It is an old Hitachi linear tracker that has been with me since 8th grade.  "It's your's, guys."  Was all I had to say to turn two boys into vinyl buying junkies!!  Really.

We were buying records at records stores 1/2 to 1-1/2 hours away, searching craigs list, goodwill, etc.  Bought a spin clean and mini vac and cleaned many a record.  After a while my interest was slipping.  It just didn't sound very good.  Downloaded the manual and protractors.  Bought the sure force gauge and read a lot.  But it just wasn't right.  Do I need a new needle, different table, phono pre, wires too long, cleaning machine, set up??????     I really enjoyed the boy's P mount Hitachi upstairs more than this JVC.

Last month I bought a used Technics 1200 MKII from a very nice fella and through my novice questions I believe it is set up very well.  It has an AT 440, newer cover and extra head shell.



Got it home, hooked her up and WOW!!  What a freakin difference.  Bass is the same or better, the midrange is opened up, much much better high end.  I know AT's are considered non-lacking on the right side of the frequency scale but damn...almost CD like     Our records sound much better.  Less surface noise and just better overall sound.  We've had a renewed vigor for vinyl with this new deck that we have to listen to every album again.  Even added more vinyl to our Cmas list.

So, after a bit we put the AT 440 on the JVC.  Yep, much better than the signet.  Of course the boys said, "Dad, what are you going to do with the old table?"  I said, "which one?"     At this point I believe I need a new needle or cart for the JVC.

Here come the questions and chance for any of you to post what you might do with either of these two decks.  I will keep one and let the boys use the other.  Neither have plastaclay which I plan on doing to both.  You guys still putting some in the headshell??  Both use the original rubber mat but I will probably go to a herbies mat.  Add a maple block.  My preamp is an Audio Vista MM pre.  I think I should stick to a MM or HOMC cart and keep my pre at this point.

Which deck do I keep and use as my main table, JVC or the Technics?
New needle/retip for the Signet TK-5e?  ~$125
New cartridge? (budget <$400)
very leery of buying a used cart unless I can be certain of it's condition.

System info on my systems page.

[Wayner]

I have the Techincs SL1200MKII with an AT440MLa. It is an awesome deck and rivals my Empire and VPI.

I have my AT aligned in a Lofgren B and it's way out at the end of the slots.

Do not put any plasticlay on the tonearm or any part of the tonearm. I have tried this and all that happens is that it robs sound.

I also track the AT at 1.6 grams with the anti-skate set at 2.15, but yours may vary a bit.

Wayner

[JackD]

Maxcast

I own a QL-A7 along with a QL-Y7.  The A7 plinth has already been stuffed.  Also owned and sold on, several TT's from the SL-1xxx series.  I personally prefer the JVC tables, plus in this comparison the A7 has the auto-lift.  If it were me I would keep the JVC and give the boys the Technics.  Another plus to this is that the Technics may be more forgiving of "younger handling" and parts are still available from KAB and other places.  As to the cartridge situation, the Signet is a very desirable cartridge, if you like the AT house sound.  If you do I would buy a replacement stylus and try that first.  They are available still from several places like Turntable Needles.

http://www.turntableneedles.com/SIGNET-TKN22-Needle-for-Signet-TK22E-TK1E-TK3E-TK5E-TK6E-TK7E-TK7SU-cartridges_p_4095.html

If not other choices would to me be for new the Ortofon OM-20, Denon Dl-110 or Nagaoka MP-110.  If you want to go closer to you $400 limit in a new catridge you can just go up each ones respective line. If you chose to do the stylus and don't like the sound, the Signets always command a good price on the used market.

Also don't know the voicing of the Salk line of speakers.  My observations are based on my Vandersteens and GMA's

Jack

[jarcher]

I'd go for the JVC for the reasons mentioned by jack. The  technics will also have more of a " cool" factor for the kids as its a classic DJ table.

For the JVC I'd spend the $ on the best ortofon 2M series MM cartridge you can afford and upgrade if possible the tone arm cable and the cable from the phono preamp. Ive found that turntables really benefit from better cables (even power cables) because of the low signal levels involved.

As for other tweaks (mats, blocks, etc), I wouldn't stress about it too much. An IKEA expedit or wall mounted shelf would do most of what you need.

[MaxCast]

Thanks for the set up tips on the 1200, wayner. I'm going to check those to how it is set now.

Jack thanks for the tips on the JVC. It is the one I am inclined to keep and upgrade. The cart is original from the purchase of the used table and therefore suspect on the condition. I do like the at440 sound however may be a bit too hot.

[neobop]

Based on your experience with the 440, you should consider either a 150MLX ($325), an Ortofon OM-40 ($399), or another 440 ($199).  The price is too high for the Signet replacement needle. It's just a bonded elliptical and I think you'll be happier with one of the above options with similar sound and nude micro styli.  You could get a 2M Bronze for $389.  I think the 150MLX might be the best choice.  It's not as aggressive as the 440 and has more detail/finesse.  These prices are from LpGear.  Have fun.
neo 

[JackD]

If you are getting equal channel balance then the cartridge is fine.  I and others have ones older than the Signet.  Another option for stylus that will get you the qualities that Neobop refers to is the Audio Technica ATN20SS stylus, but it is more money than the Signet though much better.  Stereo Needles and Turntable Needles are the only places under $200. Cables that came on that TT were quite good and if in good condition can wait till later unless you like DYI audio work.  Mine measured at less than 100pf.  As for the Ortofons, I prefer the sound of the OM series to the 2M series, but that is me.  The 2M series to me is sterile and forward while the OM is more neutral.  Might even prefer one of the even older Ortofons like the M20FL Super Neobop has in the Trading Post.

[JackD]

Forgot to mention if you like the AT other than the hot top end with your speakers you can try "loading it down" from 47k to the mid-30's and that should help. 

[TheChairGuy]

MaxieRich,

You're going to kick yourself for not doing the plast-i-clay stuffing earlier.....all the things you like about the SL-1200 will be there (and maybe more)

The music just settles down and even the silence between cuts is exciting as the next tone emerges from a much more silent place.  Ditch the rubber mat (it simply doing provide the right interface for the record - tho it does an admirable job of damping the platter itself): I've got the Herbie's, too...it just works great.

Maple under the table may even be advised before a cartridge change.  The $100 or so (see Dawns Depot on ebay and Audiogon for Michigan Maple block cutting boards....heck you may even be able to pick them up if she's in your neck of MI)

I think the $200 spent on clay, Herbie's platter mat and maple block will have larger degree of improvement than the same amount spent on a cartridge at this point.  Then, you can budget money for a new cartridge and phono preamp. 

That's how I'd do it, at least 

[JackD]

Agree on the plasti-clay and Dawn's Depot maple(have the 3") but don't have an opinion on the mat as never tried it.  Sounds like he has a problem though with the Signet stylus that came used on the table.  Should not have been that dramatic of difference between a good working Signet stylus and the AT.  Haven't tried the clay on the Y7 or Y5F yet.

[JackD]

Another option that buys you time for cheap is to buy an $18 Sanyo/Fisher MG-29 aka RED ED Elliptical from Needledaddy1 on ebay and put it on the table you are going to give the boys. Goldring and others have sold this cartridge for as much as $80 in the past. It to is a little forward but is better than it should be for that money.

[MaxCast]

Hey thanks a lot for all the recommendations. 
Yes, Jack, I do believe the signet is damaged/worn.  It is a very big difference in sound.  So much so that I have a renewed confidence in vinyl.  I love the albums and actually putting the media on the table.  The boys are digging it and we have a blast every weekend.  Streaming is boring but very handy.

I plan to do the clay.
I plan to get a board.
I plan to try a different mat.
I plan to get a new needle/cart.

I don't plan to change the resistor (or whatever) as of yet.  I read about you guys fine tuning by doing this but not right now.

So the question is what cart?  I am partial to an ortofon but don't know why.  Never heard one.  Was tempted to try neo's used orto or the denon 110 in the trading post but really don't want to make a side step to the at440.  All tho the 440 sounded real good on a new Pink Martini lp received for Cmas. 
I like a detailed high end when it's there in the recording but not the sssss or distortion/break up you can sometimes get.  Deep warm midrange with just the right detail and a solid bass.  Is that too much to ask    I would classify the Salk speakers as truthful to what the system is telling it.  I don't believe the tweeters are hot, I would call the mids detailed and the bass tight, baby.

[JackD]

Based on your criteria I would go with the Ortofon OM-30 or the AT-150mlx.  According to others the AT-150mlx is not as hot as the lower model AT's and the Ortofon OM series is dead neutral.  I own an OM-10 and that is what I would classify it as, and the higher models are only supposed to be more of the same. I've got a Denon on order and will have an opinion when it gets here and broken in, but now like you I can only go on opinions of others.

[TheChairGuy]

MaxieRich,

I've got a Denon DL-160 with van den Hul (boron) stylus on the VPI Classic and it's fantastic.  The DL-110 internals are the same...I don't know wht positive effect the vdH stylus is: I bought this cartridge (new) this way. 

For very reasonable money, the Denon DL-110 is likely hard to beat unless you vault into price points higher.....I'm not much a fan of moving coils, but the Denon's truly are standouts.

I love Grado's...but, unless they have the cheap bonded stylus replaced with something better and tracking enhancements a la van Alstine Longhorn mod(s)...it doesn't better the Denon.  Wayner makes the van Alstine Longhorn modded cartridges for Frank...I think they're $299.  KABUSA stocks the UK-sourced Paratrace stylus for $150 I think.  That $450 combo is the only one that likely decisively trumps the $140 Denon Dl-110 in today's (generously overpriced) cartridge market. 

The AT's are all priced fairly, too....you probably can't go too wrong there, either. 

Ortofon essentially doubled their pricing a few years ago and most models don't offer the value they once did (to me).  Their moving magnets all have such high inductance, they can't possibly have a flat response across the frequency spectrum.  700mH internal inductance is a non-starter for any cartridge for me.   The higher the internal inductance, the lower the treble response gets ragged (tempered by stylus quality et al...but the internal inductance is the first barometer I monitor before buying any MM cartridge nowadays)

Grado and Denon have such low internal inductance  when armed with quality styli - have ability to deliver flatter frequency response.  I think the AT's are all much lower than 700mH, too. 

Get clay'ing, will ya'??!! 

[MaxCast]

Clay is slowly accumulating as I get a pound at a time with a 40% off coupon.  lol
Thanks for the cart tips, John.  Still going back and forth in my mind.  Going to see if that used 110 is still available here.  Would be an economical backup if I do end up getting a more expensive denon, orto or AT.  Seems like grado users love them but I am leery of the hum.

Will probably go with a Dawn's platform as they are on sale right now.  Does anyone know if they are "sealed" for moisture?

Who do you guys use for vinyl products?  Looking to go to one vendor that has great service and decent prices (doesn't have to be the cheapest).

[JackD]

I bought the plasticlay at Walmart for $.99 box

Haven't had a Grado hum on any of my five JVC DD's

The Dawn's butcher blocks are NSF certified for restaurant use and so should be sealed.

Define vinyl products

I think the Denon sold in a few hours.

Jack

[TheChairGuy]

Clay is slowly accumulating as I get a pound at a time with a 40% off coupon.  lol
Thanks for the cart tips, John.  Still going back and forth in my mind.  Going to see if that used 110 is still available here.  Would be an economical backup if I do end up getting a more expensive denon, orto or AT.  Seems like grado users love them but I am leery of the hum.

Will probably go with a Dawn's platform as they are on sale right now.  Does anyone know if they are "sealed" for moisture?

Who do you guys use for vinyl products?  Looking to go to one vendor that has great service and decent prices (doesn't have to be the cheapest).

Rich,

Yup - no hum with the Grado on any of my 4 or 5 JVC TT's I had them on, either.  But, Grado has tracing issues that aren't fully fixed until you get the van Alstine mods and a better stylus.  The price vaults to several times that of the Denon DL-110 when it eventually betters it in most ways. 

The Denon's are simply standouts.....I've had the pleasure of using DL160vdh, DL304 and DL-S1: all punch so far above their weight versus competition it's silly.

I don't know the AT's as well.....but continued solid reports about their cartridge and headphones seems they are a rationally priced company, overall. Ortofon, not so much - got pricey of late.

AllArtSupplies are the cheapest I know of for real Plast-i-Clay.  I've used various makes and they are all mostly the same...except one brand was Mexican made (can't remember the brand name) and it stained my hands pretty bad for a day+ - didn't appreciate that one - tho it worked fine.  http://www.allartsupplies.com/item.php?articleId=120

With Dawns Butcher Blocks, I simply slathered it in mineral oil ($6 at the hardware store) and hit it with another coat every couple years.  No big deal if it takes on a little water....a 3.5" maple block won't be splitting anytime in my lifetime if one did nothing to it.

Cheers, John 

[MaxCast]

Update.  I have been thoroughly enjoying the new threads about vinyl re-entry.  We have been buying vinyl and having great listening sessions in the room.
I have settled on a Grado black with 8MZ stylus.  This seems to offer the best sound with my system.  Second best was a used Shure m91ed with jaco stylus but ran into issues.  I need to revisit this combo on the next snow day.  In summary the Grado combo offers a great over all presentation and I am more interested in trying different (already bought) tubes in my preamp for shits and grins.   

Bought a 3.5" block from Dawn.  Got some Herbies big rubber things under it.  Still want to replace the feet on the table but have to measure the thread size.

Got two different ever-so-slight hums I need to track down.

Need a couple more pounds of clay.





How does this look for VTA?






Lastly I'd like to thank the vinyl helpers at AC in the threads and through PM's to people like me.

[JackD]

Rich

The VTA looks good if you are to to be off be to the tail down side.  Also unless it is an optical illusion check the red connector the the cartridge pin it looks like the tab is bent over.  That may be part of the hum.

Jack