Model T vs B&W 802D

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Fido2

Model T vs B&W 802D
« on: 21 Dec 2012, 02:11 pm »
Has anyone listened to both of the speakers? How do they compare? The 802D is an excellent detail delicacy speaker but may not be the best loud hard rocker. Will the Model do both well? I am using the 14B SST amp. Thanks

Big Red Machine

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #1 on: 21 Dec 2012, 02:23 pm »
Why not SoundScape 8's for a whole lot less and smoother delivery?

James Tanner

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Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #2 on: 21 Dec 2012, 03:34 pm »
Has anyone listened to both of the speakers? How do they compare? The 802D is an excellent detail delicacy speaker but may not be the best loud hard rocker. Will the Model do both well? I am using the 14B SST amp. Thanks

Hi Fido2

It's a good question because 'loud rock' assumes a speaker that can play at high levels without 'dynamic compression'.  It was one of the major design parameters with the Model T speakers for me.  I always remember my Corner Horns and how dynamic they were.   :thumb:

james

Fido2

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #3 on: 21 Dec 2012, 04:11 pm »
Why not SoundScape 8's for a whole lot less and smoother delivery?

Have you actually listened to both the 802D and the Model T?

Fido2

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #4 on: 21 Dec 2012, 04:12 pm »
Hi Fido2

It's a good question because 'loud rock' assumes a speaker that can play at high levels without 'dynamic compression'.  It was one of the major design parameters with the Model T speakers for me.  I always remember my Corner Horns and how dynamic they were.   :thumb:

james

Yes! Where can I demo a pair of Model T's near Nashville James?

werd

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #5 on: 21 Dec 2012, 04:37 pm »
Yes! Where can I demo a pair of Model T's near Nashville James?

I would go with the model Ts on an older Bryston. A new one would be interesting and a definite shoot out for sure. depends on where you live and prices too.

Rod_S

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Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #6 on: 21 Dec 2012, 08:16 pm »
I haven't heard the Bryston speakers but as a hard rock and metal listener and an owner of the current gen 802 Diamonds the B&W's are marvelous regardless of the type of music and can play really loud. I use Bryston amps, my 802's have always been powered either by a single 4B-SST or two bi-amped 4B-SST's.

mkaiser

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Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #7 on: 21 Dec 2012, 08:23 pm »
Werd - Why an older amp as you suggest?

Mark

James Tanner

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Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #8 on: 21 Dec 2012, 09:01 pm »
Yes! Where can I demo a pair of Model T's near Nashville James?

I am sorry to report that there are no dealers yet in nashville area.  We have appointed 10 dealers so far in North America and are sold out till Feb.

james

werd

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #9 on: 21 Dec 2012, 09:50 pm »
Werd - Why an older amp as you suggest?

Mark

Well it's just system budgeting. The B&Ws are like twice the price then the Model Ts.

If I was going to stay with an older Bryston I would take the model Ts because they are in line more with your amp commitment. For the same price of the B&Ws you can get the new 14sst2 and the new model Ts. Well if you sell the older  Bryston you can.  See what I mean. 

JerryLove

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #10 on: 22 Dec 2012, 12:11 am »
Have you actually listened to both the 802D and the Model T?
I've listened to the 802D, I own a pair of N801's. I have not listened to the Model T.

In response to the response you were responding to; I've also heard the SS8's. Between the 802D and SS8 I prefer the SS8.

JerryLove

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #11 on: 22 Dec 2012, 12:23 am »
Looking at pictures of the Model T, I would like to hear some impressions. I have some concerns.

One concern is that I've never found a multi-tweeter (rear tweeters not withstanding) speaker that I've liked the HF imaging on.
Another is the distance between the top tweeter and the bottom mid-range and how that will affect sound near the crossover.
Finally: with a 25Hz bottom end I'd likely add a sub; so personally I'd like to see the cost go down in exchange for the LF going up.

But perhaps these concerns have been solved in the design. As I said: I've never heard one.

werd

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #12 on: 22 Dec 2012, 12:49 am »
Looking at pictures of the Model T, I would like to hear some impressions. I have some concerns.

One concern is that I've never found a multi-tweeter (rear tweeters not withstanding) speaker that I've liked the HF imaging on.
Another is the distance between the top tweeter and the bottom mid-range and how that will affect sound near the crossover.
Finally: with a 25Hz bottom end I'd likely add a sub; so personally I'd like to see the cost go down in exchange for the LF going up.

But perhaps these concerns have been solved in the design. As I said: I've never heard one.


Yah me either, I have to admit that I.lmfao at the speaker when I first seen it.  Not laughing now and i would buy them in second. I have been spending some time with them now. They sound  like an MTM. Mostly because I think due to the height of The midrange drivs . They seem to be able  to get the tweeters to sound focused like an MTM.

I heard them the other day with a 50 watt hybrid Antique sound lab set amp. The amp had no problems with those speakers

James Tanner

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Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #13 on: 22 Dec 2012, 02:44 pm »
Finally: with a 25Hz bottom end I'd likely add a sub; so personally I'd like to see the cost go down in exchange for the LF going up.
[/quote]

Hi,

Integrating a Sub into a system is not an easy task.  I have found that a larger full range speaker capable of very low frequency response always sounds more integrated  to me if  properly placed in a room and maintains the proper phase alignment etc. as opposed to a small speaker integrated with a subwoofer.  At least in a stereo setup.  For home theater and the .1 channel its a different story IMO.

james

werd

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #14 on: 22 Dec 2012, 05:01 pm »
Finally: with a 25Hz bottom end I'd likely add a sub; so personally I'd like to see the cost go down in exchange for the LF going up.


Hi,

Integrating a Sub into a system is not an easy task.  I have found that a larger full range speaker capable of very low frequency response always sounds more integrated  to me if  properly placed in a room and maintains the proper phase alignment etc. as opposed to a small speaker integrated with a subwoofer.  At least in a stereo setup.  For home theater and the .1 channel its a different story IMO.

james

You can also consider the speakers cheaper in price too since you don't need a sub. That expensive vanishes, you can say that about  a lot of speakers but this one is certainly one of them. Including the B&W one too.

JerryLove

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #15 on: 22 Dec 2012, 06:23 pm »
Integrating a Sub into a system is not an easy task.  I have found that a larger full range speaker capable of very low frequency response always sounds more integrated  to me if  properly placed in a room and maintains the proper phase alignment etc. as opposed to a small speaker integrated with a subwoofer.  At least in a stereo setup.  For home theater and the .1 channel its a different story IMO.

Obviously: your subjective experience is entirely valid to your subjective experience. But there are a few things I'd like to mention on your evaluation of objective cause.

For one: the phase of almost any speaker is not constant. The phase moves as the frequency moves. There should be no sudden shifts in a well-designed crossover; but 15khz and 150hz will not be in phase. It's OK, because absolute phase doesn't matter to the human brain and relative phase is only a problem at extremes. (plus both phase and delay to the sub can be adjusted in a decent AVR).

Indeed the Model T is already 3 different drivers integrated together. Adding a sub just makes it 4 drivers. (and that's not to pick on the Model T; this is true of any speakers)

Conversely: There are some real problems with using your mains for subs even if they are completely capable. To start with: good mains placement is also bad sub placement. They are close enough for comb filtering and along the same wall so likely to encounter similar null points and standing wave issues.

The choice to buy a sub or not for a 25Hz speaker is up to the listener. The SS8 also goes to 25Hz. The 802D goes to 32Hz.
Subs will go lower. Harmonics of some instruments will go lower. That's up to you.

James Tanner

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Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #16 on: 22 Dec 2012, 06:35 pm »
Obviously: your subjective experience is entirely valid to your subjective experience. But there are a few things I'd like to mention on your evaluation of objective cause.

For one: the phase of almost any speaker is not constant. The phase moves as the frequency moves. There should be no sudden shifts in a well-designed crossover; but 15khz and 150hz will not be in phase. It's OK, because absolute phase doesn't matter to the human brain and relative phase is only a problem at extremes. (plus both phase and delay to the sub can be adjusted in a decent AVR).

Indeed the Model T is already 3 different drivers integrated together. Adding a sub just makes it 4 drivers. (and that's not to pick on the Model T; this is true of any speakers)

Conversely: There are some real problems with using your mains for subs even if they are completely capable. To start with: good mains placement is also bad sub placement. They are close enough for comb filtering and along the same wall so likely to encounter similar null points and standing wave issues.

The choice to buy a sub or not for a 25Hz speaker is up to the listener. The SS8 also goes to 25Hz. The 802D goes to 32Hz.
Subs will go lower. Harmonics of some instruments will go lower. That's up to you.

Hi Jerry

As you say it comes down to my experience with real speakers in real rooms but I have always preferred a large full range speaker to a small speaker with subs - assuming the room can support a large speaker of course.  I just find it much easier to get it right when it comes to frequency balance and power response into the room.   :thumb:

To each his own I guess and I give credit to those that can make the Sub/Sat system work well. :thumb:

james

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Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #17 on: 23 Dec 2012, 10:38 am »
Why not SoundScape 8's for a whole lot less and smoother delivery?

What are you talking about?  :roll: The Model Ts are less expensive than the Sound Scape 8s.

KeithA

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #18 on: 23 Dec 2012, 12:37 pm »
What are you talking about?  :roll: The Model Ts are less expensive than the Sound Scape 8s.

I think the poster is referring to the Soundscapes vs 802 Diamonds  :)

Keith

bjski

Re: Model T vs B&W 802D
« Reply #19 on: 24 Dec 2012, 12:32 am »
Quote
I am sorry to report that there are no dealers yet in nashville area.  We have appointed 10 dealers so far in North America and are sold out till Feb.
How about a list of the 10 dealers?
Regard's
BJ Hammell