Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?

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werd

Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« on: 17 Dec 2012, 06:28 am »
This is really putting my butt on the line. I was screwing around with dampening  my AZs when i came across a very interesting phenomenon...lol. I am really not sure we need tweeters on both sides of a stereo image. Of course this is very system and speaker dependant but i am really digging my system right now with only a tweeter and mids on the right side and mids on the left only. There seems to be an excessive amount of tweeter activity with two tweeters. You get the cymbals on one side buts its still there in the middle buts its not so excessive. I am beginning to think that we are pushing to much treble info into our soundstage. I am going to keep this up but what do you guys think?

Also i am using only one sub. the side with the tweeter missing i have my sub placed. Its seems to even out some how. Like i said i am putting my butt on the line but man this aint bad.

Tyson

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Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #1 on: 17 Dec 2012, 06:48 am »
Many speakers have an uneven power response.  Usually the tweeters are only matched to the mids when listened to on-axis.  Listened to off axis, the tweeters are still very strong, but the mids drop off a lot (due to beaming in their upper ranges).  Result?  The tweeters overload the room compared to the mids.

This is why waveguides are so useful - they force the tweeters to be more directional, matching the mids, and giving better in-room response. 

That might explain why you like the sound of only one tweeter - by cutting the # of radiating sources of highs in half, there's less HF energy splashing around the room. 

werd

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #2 on: 17 Dec 2012, 07:20 am »
Many speakers have an uneven power response.  Usually the tweeters are only matched to the mids when listened to on-axis.  Listened to off axis, the tweeters are still very strong, but the mids drop off a lot (due to beaming in their upper ranges).  Result?  The tweeters overload the room compared to the mids.

This is why waveguides are so useful - they force the tweeters to be more directional, matching the mids, and giving better in-room response. 

That might explain why you like the sound of only one tweeter - by cutting the # of radiating sources of highs in half, there's less HF energy splashing around the room.

Good explaination. These speakers are like in the 10k value at least for high freq right now. They have Living voice sound to them now. You have to play with em now to get the proper balance but its a can do. Splashing is a very good word for it and lack of it now.

JohnR

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #3 on: 17 Dec 2012, 08:10 am »
I am beginning to think that we are pushing to much treble info into our soundstage.

You may well be right.

Elizabeth

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Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #4 on: 17 Dec 2012, 12:30 pm »
Here I am with TEN LINEAR FEET of tweeters.. (Magnepan 3.6)
No problem with my tweetyness.

jtwrace

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Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #5 on: 17 Dec 2012, 12:50 pm »
This is why waveguides are so useful
Yes, but sadly there are many improperly designed waveguides.  What some call waveguides aren't really a waveguide. 

kevin360

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Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #6 on: 17 Dec 2012, 01:55 pm »
Perhaps, then, a little padding is in order. There are better ways to reduce the treble energy than the elimination of the left speaker's tweeter.

BobRex

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #7 on: 17 Dec 2012, 03:04 pm »
Let's think about this for a moment.  When I am listening to a Van Gelder recording the highs are almost completely focused to the right side of the soundstage (reasonable when you consider how he placed drum kits.)  But if I'm listening to some older Capitol releases, the highs are on the left (Tim Out is a good example, again logical if you look at how the drums were set up.)  More modern releases have the drums more or less centered, with the hihat on the right.  But I also have a large number of recordings where the engineer recorded the drums backward, placing the hihat on the left.  And don't get me started on high percussion placement in classical recordings!

So, given that, why would you want to hobble one channel by eliminating the high freqs?  If you've got too much crosstalk, or even too much energy fed into the room, then I'd look to either your room or system, but I doubt it's the speaker's fault.   Remember, there has to be a signal in the channel for the speaker to produce it.

werd

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #8 on: 17 Dec 2012, 05:33 pm »
Let's think about this for a moment.  When I am listening to a Van Gelder recording the highs are almost completely focused to the right side of the soundstage (reasonable when you consider how he placed drum kits.)  But if I'm listening to some older Capitol releases, the highs are on the left (Tim Out is a good example, again logical if you look at how the drums were set up.)  More modern releases have the drums more or less centered, with the hihat on the right.  But I also have a large number of recordings where the engineer recorded the drums backward, placing the hihat on the left.  And don't get me started on high percussion placement in classical recordings!

So, given that, why would you want to hobble one channel by eliminating the high freqs?  If you've got too much crosstalk, or even too much energy fed into the room, then I'd look to either your room or system, but I doubt it's the speaker's fault.   Remember, there has to be a signal in the channel for the speaker to produce it.

Its all about the off axis response. Pointing the tweeter speaker at you its a no go. Both tweeters need to be on for that. I have to point the speaker past me. I am going to try them in front. But you think two tweeters need proper placement. This is clinical but i think its do able with my system. Not with elizabeths.... :icon_lol: Or we could try. It would take a couple bottles of straight up whisky and a demolition saw though....

Taking out the tweeter and using the off axis response of the right tweeter is telling me that there is still enough high freq info without the "splash". You can get this but its expensive. Its sounds like an upgrade. The only thing is its finnicky. I am just rocking it out right now but i have to admit i am scared about my jazz. Could be missing cymbal info due to no left tweeter.

werd

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #9 on: 17 Dec 2012, 06:58 pm »
You may well be right.

Well with direct radiating speakers anyways. Its making me wonder if tweeter frequencies have more in common with subs than i previousily thought. You only need one sub. Bass frequencies will move around the room as such that phase and freq can be adjusted to compensate. Maybe tweeters frequencies can be manipulated too but instead of bass loading steps we would use off axis tweeter loading. I dont know  :scratch:

Where is Bpape when you need him...  :)? There is no way either i could manage this without my free roaming 244s i use. Havent got them placed permanent and just have them moving around.


jimdgoulding

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #10 on: 17 Dec 2012, 07:09 pm »
Perhaps, then, a little padding is in order. There are better ways to reduce the treble energy than the elimination of the left speaker's tweeter.
Werd, you will have a PM shortly.

Letitroll98

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Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #11 on: 17 Dec 2012, 07:14 pm »
If you are disconnecting one tweeter in a stereo array and it sounds better, there is something very wrong in your system, somewhere.  While perhaps not always the optimum placement, if pointing your tweeters directly at the LP makes the system unlistenable, there is something very wrong in your system, somewhere.

werd

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #12 on: 17 Dec 2012, 07:57 pm »
If you are disconnecting one tweeter in a stereo array and it sounds better, there is something very wrong in your system, somewhere.  While perhaps not always the optimum placement, if pointing your tweeters directly at the LP makes the system unlistenable, there is something very wrong in your system, somewhere.

There was nothing wrong, i have my system setup nice. There is nothing wrong with my stereo array. Its primo actually and i believe its the reason why i am able to assess this. If my system was out of wack it would sound even more out of wack with one tweeter. It doesnt. Like i said i am still hearing tweeter info buts its scaled back considerably. My point from the start was i think we are injecting too much tweeter info into our soundstage and a single off axis tweeter will still generate enough high freq info.
 
My stereo array is still there btw it just has less tweeter in it. But am i missing cymbal information in my left channel is the 64k question?
Probably.

rollo

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Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #13 on: 17 Dec 2012, 08:06 pm »
  Let me through a wrench in here. Some time back we were demonstrating the Omega single driver speaker. A super tweeter was hooked up yes one placed in a center channel position. Using the tweeter like a single sub was the owners choice. I thought to myself before the demo this is not going to sound good. BTW the tweeter was facing backwards and connected to the right ch speaker at ear level height. :scratch:
     Well, in a nutshell I stood corrected. Have no explanation as to what we heard. Clearly a more open presentation with added detail and decay of harmonics. Got Me ??


charles

BobRex

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #14 on: 17 Dec 2012, 08:19 pm »
There was nothing wrong, i have my system setup nice. There is nothing wrong with my stereo array. Its primo actually and i believe its the reason why i am able to assess this. If my system was out of wack it would sound even more out of wack with one tweeter. It doesnt. Like i said i am still hearing tweeter info buts its scaled back considerably. My point from the start was i think we are injecting too much tweeter info into our soundstage and a single off axis tweeter will still generate enough high freq info.
 
My stereo array is still there btw it just has less tweeter in it. But am i missing cymbal information in my left channel is the 64k question?
Probably.

Well, using my examples try playing a Blue Note against Time Out and let your own ears be the judge.  Then play more modern recordings; can you hear when the drumsets are recorded backwards?

What music have you been using to test?  Is it possible that the recordings don't have enough specific hf info on both channels?  Something is wrong, it's just hard to tell what at this point.

All I can tell you is that in my over 30 years as an audiophile and audio salesman, I've never come across anybody making your complaint before.  This is new territory for me.

BobRex

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #15 on: 17 Dec 2012, 08:21 pm »
  Let me through a wrench in here. Some time back we were demonstrating the Omega single driver speaker. A super tweeter was hooked up yes one placed in a center channel position. Using the tweeter like a single sub was the owners choice. I thought to myself before the demo this is not going to sound good. BTW the tweeter was facing backwards and connected to the right ch speaker at ear level height. :scratch:
     Well, in a nutshell I stood corrected. Have no explanation as to what we heard. Clearly a more open presentation with added detail and decay of harmonics. Got Me ??


charles

Charles, I'm not sure what you are geiing at here, but if one super tweeter made that much of an improvement, imagine what 1 per channel may have done!

*Scotty*

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #16 on: 17 Dec 2012, 08:32 pm »
I wouldn't blame the loudspeaker for the apparent excess of high frequencies. Your entire chain could easily contribute to this perception. It is also very doubtful that you have an off axis flare of treble energy from your loudspeakers. The manufacturer claims that a 3d order Linkwitz-Riley crossover network has been used which prevents the problem from happening.
What we don't have is a graph of the forward horizontal polar frequency response. In fact in I can't find a frequency response measurement of the Adagio anywhere on the web at all. The speaker could be a little hot on top but there is no way to know for sure.
A good friend of mine has a set of these speakers and does not think they are hot on the top end. Different electronics and room of course.
If the SYSTEM has an excess of treble energy, this would partially explain Werd's report of being able to hear very good detail even at very low listening levels. An excess of treble energy would offset the loss of high frequency hearing sensitivity that occurs when
the SPLs are reduced during late night listening. The old Loudness Button on the stereo was the vintage solution to this problem.
Scotty

werd

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #17 on: 17 Dec 2012, 10:40 pm »
Well, using my examples try playing a Blue Note against Time Out and let your own ears be the judge.  Then play more modern recordings; can you hear when the drumsets are recorded backwards?

What music have you been using to test?  Is it possible that the recordings don't have enough specific hf info on both channels?  Something is wrong, it's just hard to tell what at this point.

All I can tell you is that in my over 30 years as an audiophile and audio salesman, I've never come across anybody making your complaint before.  This is new territory for me.

Mostly metal right now and some Bob Marley all done in hi Rez stuff. I will be listening to my fusion, maybe some Frisell tonight. It is not a complaint but more of an observation as to how little losing a single tweeter really effects the music.. I trying to get more ambient off axis tweeter infomztion over to rhe other side. Atm I really  like how I can still get the tweeter info at less of a cost.

Freo-1

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #18 on: 18 Dec 2012, 12:02 am »
Interesting topic.  Consider the fact that some speakers have more than one tweeter per side.  For example, the Legacy Signature III has three tweeters per side.  From experimenting with these speakers, having three tweeters makes the sound seem more open and spacious.  There is an added 3D effect that adds to the realism.  What you don't get is added treble emphasis, but in fact more realistic treble.

werd

Re: Someone explain to me why we need two tweeters?
« Reply #19 on: 18 Dec 2012, 01:32 am »
Yah, no good. Not practical. I guess I fluked off that music which  was dedicating everthing on the right channel.

One thing for sure you do not need another tweeter if you can get the music to obey the tweeter less channel.

I am just glad Fullrangeman didn't show up with his tweeter shooting baby rubbing it in. I don't know if I couldve handled that..lol