Taming the Bass with Full Range or otherwise speakers...

medium jim · « **on:** 14 Dec 2012, 04:33 pm »

Here's one for the resident experts, how to tame the bass on full ranger, or other speakers in rooms that are just plain difficult. Could lead to bonus points and will be helpful to everyone.

Thanks,
Jim

roscoeiii · « **Reply #1 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 04:44 pm »

Gearwise, the DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0 would be the first thing I'd try.

But there are also other cheaper things that could help:

If the full ranger is ported, you could also play around with stuffing the ports.

For a rear ported speaker you could play around with the distance from the walls.

medium jim · « **Reply #2 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 04:59 pm »

What about bass traps and room treatments for floor standers?

Jim

roscoeiii · « **Reply #3 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 05:03 pm »

Obvious enough that I thought that they weren't worth mentioning.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #4 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 05:14 pm »

Often a power conditioner will tighten up the bass. making it less 'boomy'. Useful where the bass is just a little annoying or wooly.
Put the amplifier on a standard power conditioner, like a Monster, or Furman.

Early B. · « **Reply #5 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 06:25 pm »

Placement.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #6 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 06:39 pm »

Quote from: Elizabeth on 14 Dec 2012, 05:14 pm

Often a power conditioner will tighten up the bass. making it less 'boomy'. Useful where the bass is just a little annoying or wooly.
Put the amplifier on a standard power conditioner, like a Monster, or Furman.

Though then you have the very real possibility that such standard power conditioners will also limit the dynamics of the amp. A reason many amp manufacturers recommend plugging straight into the wall.

There are exceptions to this (RSA is often mentioned as one), but they are pricey.

As with all power conditioning, this will be system dependent.

rodge827 · « **Reply #7 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 06:46 pm »

Quote from: roscoeiii on 14 Dec 2012, 04:44 pm

Gearwise, the DSPeaker Dual Core 2.0 would be the first thing I'd try.

But there are also other cheaper things that could help:

If the full ranger is ported, you could also play around with stuffing the ports.

For a rear ported speaker you could play around with the distance from the walls.

+1

The Dspeaker Dual Core 2.0 will work well with and correct the bass of full range speakers, as well as sub/monitor set ups.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #8 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 08:10 pm »

As I have mentioned before in other threads, I have had satisfactory results using extra subs to equalize the bass in my system and this would be my preferred method of achieving flat bass response if the room and other considerations allow it.
Scotty

roscoeiii · « **Reply #9 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 08:23 pm »

Good point Scotty. I was assuming that this was asking about instances when subs aren't desired or possible.

medium jim · « **Reply #10 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 08:48 pm »

b

Quote from: roscoeiii on 14 Dec 2012, 08:23 pm

Good point Scotty. I was assuming that this was asking about instances when subs aren't desired or possible.

Roscoe:

That is the conundrum, how to cure floor stander bass issues. However, Scotty is also correct as subs may be the way to go if the end user doesn't want to employ bass mgmt programs or active eq'ing.

Jim

roscoeiii · « **Reply #11 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 08:54 pm »

Quote from: medium jim on 14 Dec 2012, 08:48 pm

b
Roscoe:

That is the cunundrum, how to cure floor stander bass issues. However, Scotty is also correct as subs may be the way to go if the end user doesn't want to employ bass mgmt programs or active eq'ing.

Jim

Indeed Jim. Good thread topic.

I also think it might be a good idea to distinguish between DSP (which involves some sort of computer chip preforming room analysis, and what I suppose are complicated calculations) and a normal EQ (done by hand, though perhaps with the assistance of an SPL meter or other measurement devices).

JLM · « **Reply #12 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 10:27 pm »

Quote from: *Scotty* on 14 Dec 2012, 08:10 pm

As I have mentioned before in other threads, I have had satisfactory results using extra subs to equalize the bass in my system and this would be my preferred method of achieving flat bass response if the room and other considerations allow it.
Scotty

Yes, much of the problem is peaks and nulls at different locations/frequencies.

But perhaps the bulk of the problem is having more bass than space, (eyes/ears bigger than our stomachs). If you catch my drift.

medium jim · « **Reply #13 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 11:08 pm »

JLM:

I tend to agree as bass is energy and too much energy can have adverse effects.

Jim

SteveFord · « **Reply #14 on:** 14 Dec 2012, 11:43 pm »

Contact the preamp manufacturer for advice and see what they come up with in the way of suggestions.
Changing the value of the coupling caps is the surprise response I received along with a baggie full of caps.
It's really astonishing how you can tailor the sound by swapping out two caps.

werd · « **Reply #15 on:** 15 Dec 2012, 12:11 am »

I guess just by understanding what speaker frequencies are building up around your speaker. Lower midrange in and around the 300hz range seem to behave in ways thats hard to pin down. They dont get caught up in around the tweeter but they dont seem move along the floor either. Spike kits will help here but it helps just moving the speakers more away from the wall. Putting up room treatments i dont think is the entire answer also. Knowing whats going on in around your speakers is the key though to what ever solution you figure out.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #16 on:** 15 Dec 2012, 04:14 am »

When you can't try an extra sub to actively deal with bass response irregularities your life has just become a lot more difficult and achieving an optimal result may be well nigh impossible. My first choice would be equalization to knock the peaks down, you may just have to live with suck-outs at some frequencies as they cannot be filled in via equalization.
Most of the complicated speaker placement schemes that are out there are basically trying to engineer a livable trade-off between the best imaging possible and decent quality bass. These are conflicting goals and a sub-optimal compromise between them is the usual outcome when the bass problems are not addressed in some effective fashion.
Strange as it may seem one of the biggest reasons to control the resonant behavior of the listening room below the Schroeder frequency is that it allows you to optimize the imaging capabilities of your loudspeakers. I literally adjust the output and placement of my supplemental sub-woofers based on how three dimensional the sound-stage is. If the sound-stage starts to collapse towards the front of the room and shows signs of being stuck in the loudspeakers with reduced height as well as width then I know that the placement and volume settings of the subs are off.
Likewise if bass equalization via DSP or conventional methods does not also produce a marked increase in the sound-stage's height, width and depth then the results can be considered sub-optimal and you can be sure something was left on the table. At this point some sort of room treatment with a manufacturer guaranteed effectiveness below 125Hz needs to tried.
I would not like to find myself in this position, but people with this accursed hobby sometimes have to play the hand they're dealt.
Scotty

Folsom · « **Reply #17 on:** 15 Dec 2012, 04:31 am »

What speakers? If you have horns/OB consider a lower dampening amplifier like FirstWatt FJ2.

Power conditioner is a must even for an amplifier. If your dynamics are reduced your power conditioner isn't made right, or isn't right for your system. I won't run my amplifier not plugged into a power conditioner because the immense tonal qualities fall away without it (fatigue sets in).

Personally I like stereo subwoofers if possible. You can't replace displacement of good sized woofers placed correctly in the room. But they won't be very articulate without power conditioning. You can try to make up for it with room treatment but... I've always found room treatment to be the easiest way to improve on crap. Every change I've ever cared about has been more important than anything I've tried doing to a room. The only thing I hate is the reflection from a window that is too close to a speaker. Maybe some day I'll care about room treatment when I know my system can't benefit anymore for from changes. But as is inarticulate and thin sounding systems need room treatment and both are boring to start and just as boring after room treatment to me.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #18 on:** 15 Dec 2012, 04:35 am »

werd, Frequencies between 275Hz and 300Hz are equal in wavelength to half the distance from the floor to the ceiling in the average home which is usually 7.5ft. to 8ft.. It is not surprising to see some odd behavior at wavelengths that can be evenly divided into one or more of the rooms dimensions. 275Hz has a wavelength of 4ft., it goes into 8ft. exactly twice, 12ft. three times and 16ft. 4 times..
I would expect observe resonant behavior of some sort when everything "adds up" this way, The good thing is that resonances above the Schroeder frequency are easier to damp out due their shorter wavelengths and as a rule the structure itself won't support them very effectively, although you could possibly see a strong cavity resonance in a small closet that measures 4ft.x 8ft.x8ft. if it was mostly empty. Singing in the shower anyone?
Scotty

*Scotty* · « **Reply #19 on:** 15 Dec 2012, 04:51 am »

DoS, what is the 3dB down point of your speakers in room. I am unclear on the low frequency cutoff point of the horn design used in your speakers. I am also unclear on how an amplifier with a lower damping factor equaling less control over the woofers cone motion helps with bass response problems due room resonance below the Schroeder frequency. The lower damping factor should also result in a less accurate acoustic reproduction of the incoming electrical waveform, which is kind of the opposite result from that of a servo-controlled sub-woofer.
Scotty