[lonewolfny42]

Point is, it's not always a bad thing to pay a little more for a product with the comfort of knowing there will be someone to stand behind it and offer assistance for a period of longer than a few months.

" It's Worse to Pay to Little"

It is unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little.[/list:u]
When you pay too much , you sometimes lose a little money, that's all.[/list:u]
When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything,because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.[/list:u]
The common law of business balance prohibits paying  a little and getting a lot - it can't be done ![/list:u]
If you buy from the lowest bidder , it is well to add something for the risk you run , and if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better.[/list:u]
John Ruskin (1819-1900)[/list:u]

[Jay S]

I like the quote.  But I think that it doesn't apply to companies like Red Rose that go over board with their markup.  I bought a Korsun u2 amp for less than 1/10 the price of what Red Rose is selling its equivalent model for.  I bought mine for $180 at a retail store in Shanghai -- this was not a sale or clearance price so I'm sure Korsun is making money... you can imagine what the wholesale price is... and what the direct cost of parts + labor is....

[Peter]

People on this forum (especially) just think about the price. This is because they have to count every coin they spend to their hobby.

People into high-end don't think in this way, but you don't get it!

[Bill Baker]

People into high-end don't think in this way, but you don't get it!

 That was a bold statement. I'm not sure who you are pointing this statement to but if it was at me, I would like to offer my 2 cents. Please don't take this the wrong way as I am only presenting my personal views and not attacking you in any way. I am not trying to start anything

 First, I do agree that many people do not look at the dollar signs when it comes to choosing their audio componets. This is basically for the reasons as stated in one of my earlier comments where I wrote.

There are many audio consumers out there that will pay top dollar for a name brand product. There are also some benefits that come along with it. Better warranty, service locations, customer service, etc

One thing I will add this is that there are some circumstances where paying more will yield a far superior product overall. I was not degrading this class of consumers reather recognizing the fact that there actually are several different levels of markets.

  Complaining about "over priced" equipment is a waste of time in my opinion. Just look at the letters in Stereophile magazine over the past years.  If it is that far out of ones price point, don't buy it. But on the other hand, don't put it down just because you can't afford it and think it's overpriced.

  On the flip side, not everyone has a high amount of disposable $$ to spend on audio. These days, the average consumer does not spend $10k on an amplifier or $20k on a pair of speakers. On the other hand, they are still trying to get the best their budget will allow. It doesn't make them any less of a music lover. It is not my place to judge.

 I have products ranging from less than $1k to well over $50k for a single component and can appreciate the capabilities of all of them. I think the main objective that was meant to be sent across here is when you see the exact same products sold by different importers for at severely different price points. As I mentioned, I will not even comment on the Red Rose issue because I have no idea what is going on here. I would be out of place here.

  Is there a difference between Ming-Da and Audio Note? ABSOLUTELY. As much of a difference between a Ford Focus and a Porsche 911.

People into high-end don't think in this way

 You are absolutely correct Peter. I also deal with these type of audio consumers on a daily basis but also deal with the budget minded consumers. I respect and appreciate both ends of the spectrum.

but you don't get it!

  I think this one was bit over the top as there are many that do get it but can't have it this way. There are a high number of consumers that would love to have the exotic gear but it is not within their means.
  Some people, yes....they will trash a product only because of the price tag having never heard it to appreciate it's values.

[Peter]

Responce audio wrote:

As much of a difference between a Ford Focus and a Porsche 911.

You understand.

You also understand that this forum has more and more been developed for people that count every dollar. Most of the people here really believe they get a Porsche 911 when they pay nothing, but they DON'T.

Best regards,
Peter

[ABEX]

We are not talking a alittle more here ,but 10X more for a brand name.
 

I don't think you have to guess what the average consumer would choose weather he is rich or not ,given the knowledge and choice. I know what I would choose and that is what is important to me and what another person chooses to do is fine.

I cannot remember an audio product I have bought that has broken unless by my own stupidity in the last 10yrs.. I do remember an HK Citation amp that blew due to the design being flawed though which I sold soon after getting it fixed and under warranty.

I still cannot figure out why people would invest so much into their audio system when they can get pretty close in sonics to ultra expensive gear for far less,but I really don't care either. It's their $$ to choose. Hope they are happy as I am.

So where do I order one from here in the US?

Just thinking!

[Carlman]

Responce audio wrote:

As much of a difference between a Ford Focus and a Porsche 911.

You understand.

You also understand that this forum has more and more been developed for people that count every dollar. Most of the people here really believe they get a Porsche 911 when they pay nothing, but they DON'T.

Best regards,
Peter

Well, Peter, please go read your Stereophile, blindly buy expensive products you've read about, and leave us cheap-o's that actually experiment alone... Oh, and tell my wife I'm cheap when it comes to hifi..    

Your generalizations about people on AC are incorrect.  It is you who does not understand... specifically the idea of 'value' or real world subjective comparisons.  If you'd like to generalize with us more, please start a thread in Fight Club and we can battle wits there.  Bring it!

-C

[Peter]

Yesterday I read a new review of the Chinise made Shaning STP-80 amplifier. The distortion was 10%, the max. current output regardless load was 4,6 ampere. The amplifier is absolutely nothing worth.

Some of you AC people don't get it, but you believe you own a fortune for no $$$.

You don't own it. You can't buy the perfect system here on the AC, it is impossible, period.

[rosconey]

peter-You can't buy the perfect system here on the AC, it is impossible, period.


that is total hoarse shit -  

every comment makes you look more and more like a ass

if no one here has the money for your over priced crap -do us a favor and stay away

[Peter]

I am just telling the truth    

BTW:  We don't sell to any AC members! Therefore I can say the truth, but some don't want to hear that you are constantly cheated and belive cables, speakers or whatever on this forum has a value. All is just equal to made-in-china shit.

[PhilNYC]

I am just telling the truth    

I just have to ask...if you don't think people here on AC "get it", why do you care to spend any time here?

(FWIW, I am a believer in price/performance classes in high end audio.  I am also believer that as you go up in price class, the performance improvements diminish.  I also believe that people who "count every coin" often get a heck of a lot more out of their gear than guys who spend a lot.)

[Bill Baker]

This is getting too out of control for me. I'm out of this one. I'll just sit back and watch.

[lonewolfny42]

I am just telling the truth    

BTW:  We don't sell to any AC members!

WRONG.... http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?action=systems;system=10  

[doug s.]

.... You can't buy the perfect system here on the AC, it is impossible, period....

that is certainly true peter.  you cannot buy the perfect system *anywhere*, it is impossible, PERIOD!!!  it simply doesn't exist...

you miss the point of this thread.  which is, simply stated:  is a $7k red rose affirmation integrated amp any better than the $679 korsun v6i, which is exactly the same amp, w/a different nameplate?

but, since you go off on a tangent, let me add my two cents (i'd add more, if i weren't such a cheapskate!    )  while it is *generally* true that the more money you spend on audio equipment, (or anything else, for that matter), the better performance you will get, there *are* exceptions - inexpensive product that will compete toe-to-toe with far pricier gear.  this forum is geared for those with champagne taste & a beer budget.  yust because some folk choose not to drop large cash on audio equipment does *not* mean they do not get hi-end sound outta their gear.

since you are a purveyor of the spendy stuff, it is not surprising at all to me, that you will be offended that lotsa cheap gear can be as good or better than acoustic reality gear.  cuz yure too narrow-minded to see the big picture.  ya need to *relax*, peter!  don't worry, there are plenty of folks w/lotsa money that will enjoy giving it to you for your product, simply *because* it's expensive!   if it happens to also sound good, that's yust extra gravy!  

doug s.

[Carlman]

I think Peter's had his fun.  I feel certain his goal was simply to stir up some emotion.  I was really hoping to find this post or a new one in FC but Peterboy's too chicken to take his 10 million dollar gloves off.

It's too bad he represents himself so poorly because it looks like Peter represents some neat looking gear.  However, now he's turned me and probably others off of his product by his comments.

Clearly sales are slow down at Pete's Chinese gear shop or he wouldn't be yanking our chains here.... at a place with no potential buyers.  

[ohenry]

Dear Peter,
Sorry to see that life is kicking your ass.  That's the only possible reason that you have made great efforts to be so mean spirited towards the forum participants.  I sincerely hope the source of your angst passes.  

Take care, Henry

[JoshK]

I think Peter just forgot to take his bipolar meds.  


Seriously though, I don't think anyone can presume how much money someone has by the gear they buy.  Some of us just do not believe in throwing money at our systems to achieve their goals.  I mean what fun would that be?  That is no challenge.  Trying to make your own system, or putting together a music system with products of the greatest value is have the fun for some of us.

[JohnR]

Well said, Josh.

[Agisthos]

Despite the trash talking there is no doubt that manufacturers like Acoustic Reality and others are very concerned by the rise of china made audio products.

For now the name brands and technical expertise will protect the western high end audio companies but the writing is already on the wall. With the rise of the internet we are able to go directly to the source and see just how much they are marking up these  products.

Someone mentioned the street price for the Red Rose/Korsun U2 amp was $180. The vendor selling the amp will have to make his profit, lets say worst case scenario $30. Then Korsun itself makes their money $30 again. So $120 maximum cost price.

Compare this to $2000 for the Red Rose variant. And they are not that much upgraded. I have seen a website where someone took pictures of the internals and compared them to a dealers Red Rose product, the only difference was some caps or something.

And yet Mark Levinson in an interview claimed that the only thing similar between them was the case and the inside had "completely different internals". A lie.

btw someone was saying the $700 Korsun V6i was the $7000 RR Affirmation. This is not the case, the $1000 Korsun V8i is the Affirmation.

So there is ONLY a 7x markup not a 10x markup.  

[JLM]

Maybe I'm just too much of a nice guy, but if I had $7,000 that I had to spend why not buy the $1,000 version and donate the other $6,000 to charities or friends?

What kind of person wastes money, while others go without food/medicine/shelter?  Maybe this hits too close to home for many of us.  I dare say everyone here have spent more than "necessary" for audio.

What's really being debated here is degrees of relative wealth.  The super rich wouldn't think twice about paying the extra $6,000.  For many of us, $6,000 could buy a very respectible system.  For the world's poor, it would amount to years of income.