Question about balancing "Gain"

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Spirit

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Question about balancing "Gain"
« on: 9 Dec 2012, 04:20 am »
I am hoping someone with vinyl experience can instruct me.
I have recently obtained a Wright Sound AG-Phono Preamp that has no instruction manual.
There are 2 dials on the top of the preamp.  I read on the internet that this unit has "variable gain from 0 to 65db".
I assume that the gain is controlled by turning these 2 dials (one for each channel).
My questions:
1:  am I correct that these dials are in fact to conrtrol gain
2:  if so, how would I know what the ideal balance is between the gain form the Wright and the volume control of my line preamp? 
I am  new to a tube preamp like this so I need a little bit of direction.

neobop

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Re: Question about balancing "Gain"
« Reply #1 on: 10 Dec 2012, 07:36 pm »
I'm not familiar with the Wright, but assuming the controls are for gain, set it for 1/2 way and give it a try.  High output carts generally require around 40dB, and low output carts around 60dB or more.  Preamps and systems vary widely with gain requirements so a little experimentation is in order. Most preamps sound best with the volume control set around 11:00, on the other hand, you might be able to plug the phono stage directly into your amp and use the controls on the Wright.  Does it have provisions for loading? 
neo

Spirit

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Re: Question about balancing "Gain"
« Reply #2 on: 10 Dec 2012, 08:10 pm »
Thanks for the reply Neo:
I will give it a try based on your direction.
Correct me if I am wrong:
Is it best to turn the gain controls as high as possible - as long as no noise is heard - and then make a final adjustment using the Preamp Master volume?

neobop

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Re: Question about balancing "Gain"
« Reply #3 on: 11 Dec 2012, 02:16 am »
Not necessarily. If you're using a LOMC with very low output (.2mV or less) then you will probably need max gain. If you are using a MM/MI, max would probably be too much.  Without knowing what you're using, specifically, it's hard to know what the situation is.  Give it a try with the volume around 1/2 way and you'll soon find out. You can balance the channels by playing a mono record and adjusting for equal output.

Let us know what happens, what you're using etc. I like the prospect of plugging your phono stage directly into the amp. I've often done this using just a volume control between phono stage and amp. You have built-in volume controls and your Wright can probably drive an amp nicely if there's enough gain. Not every system can do this however, depending on the gain situation.

Using a volume control all the way up is a good idea, but only if appropriate. Some amps have gain controls and if you turn them all the way up, you effectively remove the pot from the signal path. What cart are you using and how is the phono stage loaded?
neo

Spirit

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Re: Question about balancing "Gain"
« Reply #4 on: 11 Dec 2012, 02:24 am »
I am using a Soundsmith "The Voice" moving-iron cartridge with the Wright Sound phono preamp.
According to the specs the output voltage is >0.6mV. 
I tried the gain controls about 1/2 way and it it actually playing very nicely.
I also would have loved to plug the phono preamp directly into the power amps but, alas, I have 2 other sources so that was that.

neobop

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Re: Question about balancing "Gain"
« Reply #5 on: 11 Dec 2012, 05:29 am »
Nice. 
Actually the output at standard velocity, 5cm/sec is >2.12 mV.

Output voltage >0.6 mV/cm/sec.
5 cm/sec. Lat. RMS >2.12

Must be a sweet set-up. There's much love for both pieces.
neo

Spirit

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Re: Question about balancing "Gain"
« Reply #6 on: 11 Dec 2012, 05:35 am »
Nice. 
Actually the output at standard velocity, 5cm/sec is >2.12 mV.

Output voltage >0.6 mV/cm/sec.
5 cm/sec. Lat. RMS >2.12

Must be a sweet set-up. There's much love for both pieces.
neo
Good morning Neo!
OK - here is a true confession:  I am a music lover; I have this "nice" gear; but I have no idea what you just wrote!  I am not afraid to admit it! 
So in order to learn, I am politely asking you if you could explain what these specs mean.  By understanding
through learning it will then allow me to make rationale (I know, no such thing in this hobby!) from now on.
At your leisure!

neobop

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Re: Question about balancing "Gain"
« Reply #7 on: 11 Dec 2012, 09:36 pm »
There are 2 basic types of cartridges, high and low output, designated HO and LO. A cart(ridge) is a transducer, it converts energy from one form to another. In this case it converts mechanical energy to electrical energy. The output is expressed in millivolts at a standardized mechanical velocity, 5cm/sec.

Most HO carts have an output between 2.0 to 5.0mV.  Most LO carts have an output between 0.2 to 0.5mV.  HO carts generally require about 40dB of gain from a phono stage.  LO carts require more, around 60dB, which often necessitates another gain stage, either built in or external.

Carts are also designated by type of generating system. A moving coil (MC) has the cantilever connected directly to the coils and most are LO, which makes them LOMC.  There are also HOMC but not as prevalent.

HO carts are usually moving magnet MM, or moving iron MI, which your Zephyr is. Many people think the very best are MC, but you can get great results with any type depending on quality.

Record care and cleaning is very important for long term satisfaction from your record player.  There's lots of info in the stickies and these threads for general info.  For specific questions, don't hesitate to ask.
Enjoy the music,
neo

Spirit

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Re: Question about balancing "Gain"
« Reply #8 on: 12 Dec 2012, 01:07 am »
Thanks Neo for that perfect explanation.  Very much appreciate it.
Just to clarify:  I have "the Voice" cart not the Zephyr.
Question:  At the output voltage of >0.6mv it seems that I am right on the cusp of requiring another gain
stage.  It seems that I have very sufficient voloume.  Does that have something to do with the fact that I am hooked into a Line Stage Preamp?

neobop

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Re: Question about balancing "Gain"
« Reply #9 on: 12 Dec 2012, 04:38 am »
Sorry about that mix up.  Your Voice has an output of .6mV per cm/sec, so at 5cm/sec the output is 2.12mV. I don't think that's exactly a linear scale or multiplier so I might not have expressed it perfectly, but the output is >2.12mV. It is a HO cart. If you had a LO cart you'd be up most or all of the way on the volume control on your Wright. 

System gain needs, and individual component gain contributions can be a tricky subject.  Normally a line stage contributes anywhere from about 8dB to 20dB. A power amp is around another 26dB. System gain requirements vary widely with speaker efficiency and room size. Because the output of a phono cart is minuscule, another 40 or 60dB or so is required to boost it to line level. Most MM (HO) stages are around 40dB and most MC (LO) stages are around 60dB. Your phono stage can accommodate virtually anything.

Loading a cart is another subject which you probably don't have to deal with using the Voice. Standard load for HO carts is 47K ohms.  When you didn't respond to my question about loading the Wright, I figured you had a HO cart.  That's part of why I suggested maybe you could go straight in to an amp.  LO carts are usually loaded between 100 and 500 ohms. Sometimes people custom load HO carts as well. If you wanted to change to a LO cart in future, you'd have to change the load in the Wright. But don't worry about that now, I'm sure it sounds great as is.
neo