[pugs]

The last time I tried this, I didn't get too many responses, so I'm going to try again.

I'm looking for new speakers.  At least, I want the mains and center channel.  My equipment is:

Odyssey stratos monos for the front three channels
Odyssey Tempest Preamp
Cary 303/200 CDP
Denon 4800 processor
B&K ST2140 for surrounds
Pioneer DV47a DVDP

Some things I'm looking for:

3D, enveloping effect
Detail and clarity without being too dry
Rich, full sound
Good impact
Non fatiguing
Quick
Transparent
Realistic sounding
Good, clean, deep, bass
Placement flexibility
50/50 for 2ch and HT
Matching center and surrounds

What I definately don't want:

Speakers to come too far out from front wall.  Less than a foot is preferable, and absolutely no more than 2'.
Unstable speakers
Dry
Fatiguing

The type of music I like is:

Jazz
rock
alternative
punk
hip hop
female vocalists


My room description is:

14 x 15 x 8
Front wall has 55" tv pushed flush into a modified closet
2ch gear on short stands in front of tv
Right wall has large sliding glass door
Front half of left wall opens up to split level above
My 11' couch is about 2-3' from the back wall
I have a bass peak at 40Hz and dip at 55-60Hz

Listening position:

Regular postion is about 33" high and around 9-10' from the mains.  
I don't walk around and listen, but I do listen to music in the back yard, outside the sliding glass door.

The main options right now:

Selah RC3 (with Seas mag woof, morel mid, Fountek ribbon tweeter) plus two whomp subwoofers and Sardonyx center channel containg the same drivers as the RC3

or

VMPS RM30M mains with either the LRC or RM30C for the center

Here's some of the pros and cons I've come up with:

Pros of VMPS:

Supossedly really clean articulate mids which a plus for HT
Very fast, detailed, and transparent
Bipole available for surrounds
Bass, mids, and treble are all adjustable *A BIG PLUS*
Asthetics
Lots of options  

Cons of VMPS:

Lots of options
Listening height *THE BIGGY*
Will have to reconfigure racks to accomodate large center
Gets expensive will some of the options
Cherry veneer costs a lot


Pros of Selah:

Different configurations to choose from. Sub/stand mount system can optimize placement
Stereo subs
Center channel would fit perfectly in my system
Standmount height can be perfect for my listening height

Cons of Selah:

Absolutely no reviews or feedback of the Seas design. Decision is totally blind
Trying to get subs to integrate well will standmounts
Have to buy stands


Both have free trials, but don't want to try both at once because return shipping can be expensive.  I really want these to be the last speakers I'll want for a long time.  I came up with these two companies because:

Both have a free trial
Reputation through this site and PMs I've received
Matching center and surrounds
Description of the type of sound they provide

I know I should listen and I know it comes down to personal preference, but which would you choose considering the information I've given and experience you've had with either or both.  

Any others to consider?

Thanks

[MaxCast]

Pugs, I know what your feeling...I will be there soon.  I have boiled it down to this.  You must listen to the speakers your self.  I believe when you get to this point and are spending this much money you must listen to the speakers.  These are fine choices and I don't think there is a best speaker....only the system you prefer.

Try to see if you can listen to someone elses system with the same speakers.  Or, inform both manufacturers what you are trying to accomplish so they are aware of the possibility of a return.  If they are both comfortable with the situation...get them both in your room and give them a spin.  The return shipping would be a small price to pay to get the ultimate answer....how they sound in your room, with your equipment, with your ears.

Now, to make it more complicated...have you considered Odyssey's speakers?

[JohnR]

Selah RC3 (with Seas mag woof, morel mid, Fountek ribbon tweeter)

Isn't that called the Carnelian? I'm sort of confused about what you're thinking of buying, as that's a floorstander. There's also a version of this speaker with built-in subs.

[lonewolfny42]

Both have free trials, but don't want to try both at once because return shipping can be expensive. I really want these to be the last speakers I'll want for a long time.

If you really want these to be your last speakers , spring for the shipping for both....this way you WILL be sure of your choice in your own system.....thats what I would do. And the extra shipping cost would be worth it to be sure. Good luck !!

[pugs]

Maxcast:  I tried the Odyssey Loreleis, but they just didn't work in my room for a few reasons:

1)  Too unstable with a small kis running around
2)  Didn't care for the Nemesis center
3)  Had to come out too far into the room
4)  Because I couldn't bring them out too far into the room, bass was too much

they were really nice, there were just too many things that didn't work in my room

John:  The Carnelian is a floorstander and has larger mid woofs than the RC3 and Chalcedony.  The RC3 with separate powered subs is the same thing as the Chalcedony, except that the powered subs are seperate instead of inside the same cabinet as the mid woofs, mid, and tweeter.  With the stand mount/sub system I could have greater placement flexibility, and a more powerful amp in the subs.  Price was pretty much the same.

Lonewolf:  That's probably the best way to go.  It just makes me nervous to have that much on my credit card.  that also means I'll have a bunch of speakers in the house, and I'll be spending lots of time messing with them.  My wife and son won't like that at all.  She might have to deal with it though.

[JohnR]

With the stand mount/sub system I could have greater placement flexibility, and a more powerful amp in the subs.

OK, but then why the RM30 and not the 626R

Anyway, if I was in your shoes I think I would be inclined to go for the Carnelian, Sardonyx, and single sub for HT.

[Bingenito]

I am in Charlotte, NC and have the new Increarrays you can see pics in the Selah forum

I also got some pugs

[pugs]

I am in Charlotte, NC and have the new Increarrays you can see pics in the Selah forum

I also got some pugs

Whatever you do don't get three.  I had two males and it was pretty mellow, then I got a female.  My house has been in chaos ever since.

[pugs]

With the stand mount/sub system I could have greater placement flexibility, and a more powerful amp in the subs.

OK, but then why the RM30 and not the 626R

Anyway, if I was in your shoes I think I would be inclined to go for the Carnelian, Sardonyx, and single sub for HT.

The 626R is rear ported.  They would have to come out further in the room.  The way my room is laid out, they would obstruct the pathway to my backyard.

[Bingenito]

BG planer ribbons and volt drivers really cannot compare with True ribbons and Seas Excel woofers. At least if you are after detailed, clean, involving sound.

Rick at Selah is one of the best at crossover design. A great crossover and some of the best drivers are hard to beat.

BTW the Peerless XLS subs like the Whomp are awesome. I was not really excited about the woofers because they are not high xmax monsters but the deep clean bass output is awesome on music and movies. I could not be happier.

Just have 2 pugs 1 Fawn male and 1 black female. Pugs prefer Selah  

[John Casler]

BG planer ribbons and volt drivers really cannot compare with True ribbons and Seas Excel woofers. At least if you are after detailed, clean, involving sound.

Just to avoid confusion, VMPS "does not" use BG ribbons.

[Bingenito]

At first glance they look very similar.

[EProvenzano]

What is wrong with BG planars?
Could you qualify your response with your own experiences.

Also, why are certain ribbons superior to these planars? I thought a planar was a ribbon...of sorts???

Thanks in advance.
EP

[azryan]

A 'ribbon' has the driven narrow strip clamped at the ends and magnets at the sides for the most part.

'Planars' are usually clamped on all sides and magnets on the front and back (or at least in the case for the B-G Neo and Level 9 neo vmps uses).

It gets confusing when people call planars ribbons and vice versa.

They're all drivers using 'sheet'-like drivers directly driven as opposed to cones where the voice coils are directly dirven and then transfered to the cone/surround.
And all are inherently super fast. Beyond that they're often very very diff. from eachother.

Sorta like saying all 6.5" woofers are the same when there are 6.5" subwoofers and 6.5" full range drivers, and everything in between.

The B-G Neo 8 doesn't even look anything like the vmps neo.

To get into it further would be way off topic, but fastest expl. is the B-G Neo 8 works best as a broadrange tweeter IMO and rolls off the lower mids, and the Level 9 Neo vmps uses is a very broad midrange driver but needs another driver to cover the upper end mainly because it's so much wider than the Neo 8.

No crimes, just very diff. drivers.

'True ribbons' (like used in the highest highs in both speakers in question here) typically are pure aluminum and so must need a transformer on the back to raise the Imp. up so it's not a short circuit to an amp.

They typically can't handle a lot of power and are fragile and don't play that low, but are also usually really high effi.  with kinda balances all that out usually in their use as a upper range tweeter.

I'd hate to see you skip the GR Research Diluceos which have been out for a while now and GR's new subwoofer drivers.

Eton cones and true ribbon tweeter, full measurments,  outstanding price if you built them as a kit. Not sure if GR has the ribbon version cut to mount in a horiz. center identical version of the Diluceo mains?

Top quality x-overs IMO and I have a x-over by selah for my Newform Research 645's that I didn't think was worth the $ or did little for performance nor used the best quality parts and messy soldering.

[pugs]

Thanks,

I'll check out GR research, but I've pretty much decided on the RM30.  I also just decided to look for a new house, so I'll probably wait to see what my new music room will be like.

[EProvenzano]

azryan,

Is 'Level 9' a brand name for the mid range VMPS uses?
or are you refering to a model number made by BG specially for VMPS?

Thanks

[JohnR]

Getting back to the original question (which seem to be moot now, but anyway), the 8" Selah speakers, center, and a great sub can be had for the same price as one pair of RM30s (about 3.5k). I have nothing against VMPS, heard the 40's at Brian's place and loved them. But this comparison continues to mystify me because of the cost difference. By the time you add a center and a sub (which you need for HT) to the RM30s you are in a completely different price bracket.

Anyway... just thought that would bear mentioning. I'm sure I would be more than happy with either of the options

[azryan]

jholtz,

"-I’m not sure what this means?-"

I was meaning that the 'omegarray' speaker you mentioned was actually augmented by you adding dual subs to the design therefore not the exact speaker rick designed.
After you did it he made a subwoofer option for that speaker and it's kit price is listed as over double the cost of the GR Alphas that you also first brought up here.

"-Uhhh…. They stand 74 ¾” tall-"

Yes, yours. Not the acutal omegarray according to rick's own posts -which is much shorter. I also clarified by saying the 'line length' which remains shorter.

"-and I specified I wanted a sealed cabinet for the woofer line. I don’t like ported speakers.-"

"-Yes ported does provide better extension at the expense of bass quality, IMHO. That is purely my opinion, BTW.-"

Ok, but have you ever heard a ported line array or any kind before forming this opinion? It's far from the same as a typical ported speaker.

"-I don’t know what Danny sells the Alphas for since I wasn’t interested in a design with planar tweeters.-"

Odd, 'cuz your speakers use planar tweeters. They don't cross as low as the Neo 8's in the Alphas, but all ribbon tweeters are planars. They reverse is not true though.

I actually explained that I believe in this thread already.

"-This one is really easy. Read Dr. Griffins white paper and look at the picture closer…. The Omegarry’s adhere to the white paper exactly.-"

You have a habit of mentioning this paper over and over on many threads. I've read it. Probably before you ever read it.
I was asking if you could answer my question.

It should be real easy for you to answer but I think you aren't able to.

"-The sub placement in my listening room is nearly identical whether they’re stand alone or integrated. I knew from past experience they’d work just as well built in.-"

I find that very hard to believe but since I haven't seen your room I won't call your claim b.s. like you called the things I said.

"-The TC Sounds subs I used are extremely low distortion and sensitivity is based on the design of the driver not the room placement.-"

Yes, certainly a very good driver. Loading it in a corner of what I'd call 'most' rooms should greatly boost the output which will lower the dist. ever further. I'm of course not saying as you use them they have high distortion. I do not think that.
I was only talking optimal IMO would almost surely be in a diff. place than the where your mains are based on probability.

"-I’m sure Rick will be happy to answer any other questions you have regarding his designs.-"

Well you've been proven wrong there as he chose to just insult me and duck away before you even posted your last post.

[Mad DOg]

Since it seems my warning went ignored, thread is now locked...

Fighting can resume in Fight Club...Now back to our regular scheduled programming...