[Mike Pranka]

So I'm the only one who thinks it's in poor taste to copy another person's work, post it publically and then ask for assistance in doing so on a forum dedicated to that work? I don't for a moment think it was done with any ill-will or malicious intent, but c'mon. As the kids are saying these days, "really?"....


Mike

[SteveFord]

He's incorporating different ideas from Mr. Firebaugh's designs into something that was never commercially available: some Reference, some Amadeus, some his own design.
I think that it was more of a tribute than anything else.
Sorry if I ruffled any feathers by steering him here.

[madmike46]

I sorry to have rustled any feathers here, but not every one has the $2000 or more  to buy a new turn table.  So those that can't afford these tables, does it mean that we are not allowed this listen to vinyl with the best ideas.

[/mp]

wholly context dependent. 
plagiarism: an official no-no in academics, standard practice on wall st and many other industries.

[SteevA]

I think it is pretty harmless imitation at present.  Who knows what he will discover - most likely nothing, but on the other hand most progress is made from a starting point of what has gone before.

Attempts to market it on the other hand would be a legitimate cause for complaint.

Of course it is also up to the owners of this forum to make, and publish, the rules since they are paying the bills.

Steve

[Mike Pranka]

Ok. So apparently I AM the only one who thinks it's in poor taste to copy someone's work, post about it publically and then ask for assistance in doing so on a forum dedicated to that work. Lovely. I'm often forced to subject myself to this sort of relativist nonsense in many areas of daily life.. I see no need to support and pay for a forum for more of the same.

MadMike: Good grief. No one has or is telling you what to do with your own time and materials or what to spend on anything, particularly a turntable. Bill Firebaugh is without doubt one of the kindest, most generous and definitely NON-commerically minded fellows I've ever known. He's made everything in his own system except for the phono cartridge. He's all for everyone doing whatever works for them. If your passion and abilities allow you to make your own gear, then great. If your abilities aren't likewise and you want a nice, unique turntable.. then maybe one of Bill's is a solution. As an aside, anyone with the skill and tools to properly machine a variety of metal parts likely has more than $2K invested in tools and their time must  be worth something. I wouldn't make this about money.

It's a given that no one creates gear in a vacuum. Bill has been influenced by technical and engineering work of the past and certainly others have been influenced by what he's done with turntables over the past 30 years. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with copying Bill's or anyone else's work, though. If I were an engineer/designer, I wouldn't want to be treated that way. The 'golden rule' and all that. I think that finding inspiration in other's work is normal and more than fine. Copying just doesn't sit well for me, personally. Perhaps I'm in a minority at this point in time. I've heard of money described as, "certificates of performance". Bill has put a tremendous amount of time and energy into developing and refining his designs. If I want and appreciate the result of it, the least I can do is pay something for it.

So, everyone please do or make whatever you like. At the same time, consider how you deal with the results of it and put yourself in the position of those that have worked to give everyone something to be inspired by.

Mike

[SteevA]

I imagine the challenge must be quite a driving factor in an exercise like that as, which you appear to have alluded to, the cost of the equipment and labour to machine up the parts to make a replica of a WTL turntable would likely cost more than buying an original.

It is your call to ban threads promoting copying if you find them offensive.

The Naim forum bans threads discussing modifying Naim gear, even something as simple as modifying fuses.  This is done, I understand, for butt covering reasons as in preventing litigation should someone fry themselves or their house after following advice published on a forum owned by Naim.  A similar ban exists for people developing their own PSUs for Naim gear and while this ostensibly is for the same reason, it is no doubt also largely because Naim make a lot of money selling power supplies. 

This of course doesn’t stop the discussions as they simply move to other forums where they develop a momentum of their own and eventually something of a cottage industry making substitutes for bits of Naim gear.

Steve

[Mike Pranka]

So we'll count Steve among those that apparently disagree with the premise of my original and subsequent post.

I have a long held appreciation for Naim gear, but I don't see the relevance of their forum rules to this thread. They likely don't allow posts about copying their gear, too.. why would they?

While I expect the content of my posts to be selectively ignored, I'm a glutton for punishment and present below a partial definition of the Golden Rule from Wikipedia:



The Golden Rule or ethic of reciprocity is a maxim,[1] ethical code, or morality[2] that essentially states either of the following:

    (Positive form of Golden Rule): One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.[1]
    (Negative form of Golden Rule): One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated.

This concept describes a "reciprocal", or "two-way", relationship between one's self and others that involves both sides equally, and in a mutual fashion.[3][4]

This concept can be explained from the perspective of psychology, philosophy, sociology, and religion. Psychologically, it involves a person empathizing with others. Philosophically, it involves a person perceiving their neighbor as also "an I" or "self."[3][4] Sociologically, this principle is applicable between individuals, between groups, and also between individuals and groups. (For example, a person living by this rule treats all people with consideration, not just members of his or her in-group). Religion is an integral part of the history of this concept.

[SteevA]

I think you missed the point - which was that other manufacturer supported/owned forums ban threads about copying or modifying thier kit and that it is your perogative to do so if you want to.

Its your call and you have every right to make it.

I dont, however, think banning such threads will stop people trying to copy WTL designs as DIY projects as their simplicity makes them attractive for this.

Steve

[/mp]

IMNOHO, there's an important distinction between, "Look at what I've built in my garage/basement/barn/shop." & "Look at what I've built & I will make one for you too for $50 less than WT."

/mp

[Mike Pranka]

Steve: I'm not missing any point. You didn't make one. I already know that I can delete what I consider to be unconstructive content from the forum. So what? What about my point?.. that I've repeated more than once. Do you understand or appreciate why I started this thread? I suspect that you do understand but simply don't care.

"mp": No one has offered copies of WTL products for sale on this forum or any other that I'm aware of. Again, so what?

Is ANYone reading what I actually wrote?

Are folks who frequent audio forums somehow uniquely disconnected from the concept of moral relativism?

I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone.

[roscoeiii]

I don't want to go down this rabbit hole particularly. But I do want to pause and say that as far as applying the Golden Rule, and being a pleasure to deal with on things related to Well Tempered and Dynavector products, Mike has been truly superb to deal with. The Golden Rule in practice would be a good way of summing up the service I received.

This is a Well Tempered Manufacturers' Circle, and I think that Mike pointing to the Golden Rule here is entirely reasonable.

[kevin360]

IMNOHO, there's an important distinction between, "Look at what I've built in my garage/basement/barn/shop." & "Look at what I've built & I will make one for you too for $50 less than WT."

/mp

Indeed, the former is DIY imitation, while the latter is theft. I missed the post in question (I've never been to this sub-forum), but I do know Steve. He is a man of conscience. I understand the project in question to be a one-off, basement DIY build. In that context, I don't think anyone's intellectual property rights have been infringed, nor has anyone's product been threatened. Regardless, it is certainly within the purview of the facilitator to remove such a thread.

I am curious, however, what the motivation was to create this thread. If the other thread was in bad taste, then this one is as well.

Imitation, by the way is a core human trait (and one that benefits us greatly), hence the expression, "Monkey see; monkey do."

[Letitroll98]

So if the original thread was posted in the community Vinyl circle, would the WT circle be calling for it's deletion? 

[Mike Pranka]

So if the original thread was posted in the community Vinyl circle, would the WT circle be calling for it's deletion?

Not by me. I don't have anything to do with the Vinyl circle.


Kevin,

It's in "bad taste" to point out that it's poor manners to post a copy of someone else's work on a forum dedicated to that work and to ask for assistance there in doing so? Huh? Are you serious? So, now I'm wrong and everyone else is spot-on-the-money. This thread is an explanation for the deletion of the other thread. If it's wrong for me or anyone else to make assertions we believe to be reasonable and logical, then I don't see any point in continuing the thread or perhaps the forum itself.

I'm well aware that imitation is flattery. I prefaced my original comments with the understanding that no ill-will or malicious intent was meant by posting an imitation of Bill's work on this forum. This simply isn't the place for it. Am I the only one who understands that?

I'm dense, but the answer is becoming clear: yes, I am (apparently) the only one who understands that. This will work out beautifully.. I'll ask myself questions. I'll answer myself and then everyone can ignore the important bits as they see fit. Fantastic.

[threadkiller]

I think this forum should be for WT owners and those so interested, not DIY or table topics of other natures. There are plenty of forums for those. Hence my dismay when VPI users were on here earlier championing their products, or, with the affiliation of WTL and Dynavector, at least in the USA and England, those that were advertising for grey market goods.
I cringed when I saw this DIY post on this forum. I thought it disrespectful, even though I'm sure it is not his intent.  Yet when a few posters think it's someone's right to be able to do so, then I throw my hands up and say OY! Enough.   Be respectful.
Chas

[SteveFord]

I doubt that he will post here anymore.
This was the wrong place for it, this is a manufacturer's circle, not a DIY circle.
My initial thought was how cool it was that someone went out to their garage, looked at a pack of golf balls and some old deer hunting arrows and then actually had the talent and drive to be able to build a tone arm out of it.  I'd have to buy the arm and then buy something to mount it on as I'm like most people - I don't have the skills to do otherwise.

He's already strayed from a copy with the carbon fiber shaft and he didn't mention that he built two different length arms to try out, 10.5 and 12" - is it better, worse, who knows.  Maybe we could gain some insight as to why the product was designed the way it was.  Maybe carbon fiber doesn't work very well and that's why they went with aluminum.  Will the arm work accepably in non-standard lengths?  Who knows.

What he'll actually end up with I have no idea; I'm pushing for a thick, rim drive platter which would mean a different bearing arrangement but it's not my project.
If I buy an arm it'll be the factory part (as Mike is only doing this stuff for his own amusement) and I'll end up with a WT/Teres cross with some modifications.  I'll have to buy and try, he can actually do it himself.  I believe that the arm itself is currently available in Canada but not the US?

I was just trying to give someone an opportunity to display their talents and an offer an introduction so he could report on what he learns from this small scale R&D effort.
My apologies for my bad manners, it won't happen again.

[Mike Pranka]

Thanks SteveF for the reply. No apology necessary. I'm just glad someone out there gets what I was going on about. and.. btw, I have no interest in everyone simply agreeing with me. If I'm wrong about or miss something, I'd hope it would be pointed out and hopefully I'll have the good sense to pay attention.

If you're interested in insights as to why the product was designed the way it was, you'll find quite a lot of information at the welltemperedlab.net blog. This is information directly from Bill Firebaugh. Materials selection is more or less critical, depending on the part and it's function. I have some insights regarding this through communication with Bill and personal experience over many years. I will say that seeming 'high tech' materials rarely show their worth with respect to the goal of just playing music and often have adverse affects.

As a brief example.. Not many know that the old WTL Reference did not have Firebaugh's input. It was done at the time by the folks who were producing WTL 'tables under license. They played with plinth material, platter materials, tone arm tube material and the 'arm design a bit. I owned one for many years and it was a capable and nice sounding thing to use. Eventually, I was able to sit an Amadeus next to my Reference in my own system with the same cartridge on each 'table. What I heard and experienced was not what I expected. An Amadeus and it's unique way with music is all Firebaugh. There is no substitute for what he's figured out. It's a cliche, but the whole is far greater than the sum of the parts and it works together for a particular result. For myself, I use gear designed by masters and use my spare time developing what little talent I have in other areas.

I'm not anti-DIY, no one at WTL is and Bill is easily the most DIY human being I know! DIY is how so many great hifi, computer and automobile, etc. companies are started. Without DIY, the non engineer/designer/craftsmen rest of us are on our own.

Machinist Mike communicated that he won't be posting here because he doesn't want to cause any hurt feelings. Ok, but my feelings aren't hurt and I doubt anyone else has suffered, either. I wish Mike well in his experimentations and would hope that he'll find his own path with respect to turntable design.. and someday might show everyone a thing or two about how to measure the groove on a record.

[roscoeiii]

Now let's delete this painful thread and move on...

[SteevA]

I suspect his diy efforts might be appreciated over at Audiokarma where they have a dedicated diy section and also a lot of tt mod and build stuff in the tt section.

While I have no interest in using the end product the process of getting there would be interesting to follow.

Steve