What Audiophile Grade speakers should I audition.

mgalusha · « **Reply #20 on:** 17 Jun 2004, 07:30 pm »

My room is 14 x 23 and the Vandy 3A's are fine in it. Obvisously this is deeper but I have them on the short wall and they work quite well. One thing to keep in mind with any of the Vandersteen's is the need to sit at least 8ft from the speakers to allow the drivers to converge properly. At least that is the recommended distance. All multi driver speakers need some distance to converge but small speakers generally require less distance.

I previously had a pair of 2Ci's in the same room and they worked very well. A used pair of model 2's should be fairly inexpensive. Of course you have to be able to live with the looks. No question they are not the nicest looking speakers out there. The do disappear nicely when listening tho.

proudx · « **Reply #21 on:** 17 Jun 2004, 09:32 pm »

hmm.. so performance wise the model 2 is about as good as the signature 2ce?

the 3a looks nice but if I am planning on going with a subwoofer the 2ce should be good enough huh.

I have heard the 3a has the same tweeter as the signature 5's though.

I wonder how much better the 3a is than the 2ce?

I will be sitting about 6.5 to 7.5ft from them.

Dmason · « **Reply #22 on:** 17 Jun 2004, 11:02 pm »

Interesting thread; I second the Vandersteens. These are among the most musical speakers out there no question. Live music is phase and time coherent, and there are only a handful of manufacturers who take this into consideration. Meadowlark is one that comes to mind...

I have a pair of 1C now, and I found I prefer them to the 2ce, although both the 2 and 3 are wonderful. I did NOT like the 5, it did not do the magic thing like the other "lower" models...I like the coherence of a good two way. The 1C is my speaker love, right now...

I have perfect pitch, (as does Richard Vandersteen it turns out,) and I mentioned to him that with his designs, the key signature of a tune just jumped up and slapped me in the ears. I thought for sure he would think I was nuts, but he then pointed out that he has similar pitch identification "talents" and attributed this to the phase and time coherence of the speakers. He also noted, --and this is really telling, that the majority of people who trade up within the Vandersteen line are musicians. "Vandersteens are musician's speakers." That is a direct quote from a conversation yesterday, in fact. "I serve the music," is another. Socially the guy is heavy-duty, but MAN is he dialed in to speaker design

They sounded soooo right during an audition while out on a bike ride a couple weeks ago, I had to have them. Total impulse buy. I Love 'em. Do not pass GO without giving the line a try and they are not at all picky about electronics. --Except maybe Musical Fidelity.-- Many people are using NAD, which I heard in the store, sounded great, but then I dragged in a good jumbo amp they were elevated into the spectacular. A benign impedance going no lower than 6 Ohms, 91db sensitivity, you could drive them with damn near anything.

Dan Driscoll · « **Reply #23 on:** 17 Jun 2004, 11:08 pm »

Quote from: proudx

hmm.. so performance wise the model 2 is about as good as the signature 2ce?

IMO, no. I have Model 2C's and I think the Model 2Ce Sig is a definite improvement. I can't comment on the 3A Sigs, I haven't heard them.

mgalusha · « **Reply #24 on:** 17 Jun 2004, 11:19 pm »

Quote from: proudx

hmm.. so performance wise the model 2 is about as good as the signature 2ce?

By model 2's I meant any of the 2x line, such as 2Ci or 2Ce. Sorry for any confusion.

Quote

the 3a looks nice but if I am planning on going with a subwoofer the 2ce should be good enough huh.

I had a pair of 2Ci's with a pair of 2WQ subs before I bought the 3A's. Bass with the 2Ci's was not a problem. Of course having dual subs didn't hurt matters.

Quote

I have heard the 3a has the same tweeter as the signature 5's though.

The 3A signature has the model 5 tweeter, upgraded crossover parts and a similar midrange to the 5. They are not the same as the new 5A (obscene money)

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I wonder how much better the 3a is than the 2ce?

They are quite a bit better than the 2Ci and probably a good step up from the 2Ce as well. When the 3A sigs were first delivered I was disappointed and actually preferred my old 2Ci's. However after a couple of months they had come around nicely. IMO the biggest improvement of the 3's over the 2's is the tweeter. It's very extended and detailed but the detail is not forced or forward. Like other Vandy's they sound kind of laid back at first. After a while you realize everything is there but is not beating you over the head as do some speakers. IMO the 3A's are very revealing of upstream components. In my experience they like, nay require, a good stout amplifier. I am currently using a pair of the Odyssey Extreme mono's and they work very well with the 3A's. My old 2Ci's were much more forgiving to amplifiers and they can be driven happily by lesser amps. We drove the 2Ci's with one of the Panasonic XR-45's and they matched up very well.

just my $.05's worth.

Mike G.

Steve Rothermel · « **Reply #25 on:** 17 Jun 2004, 11:46 pm »

Just curious - and maybe I'm a little off into left field compared to most offerings suggested here - but have you listened to the Paradigm Signature series? Or the PSB line?

Your somewhat dead room acoustics are what the Paradigms, and PSB's require. I'm always amazed at the sound-to-dollar ratio of the Canadian speakers. No, the crossover components are not state of the art, but you can replace a few key components and have some very long term and quite listenable loudspeakers for not a lot of Vegas cabbage. The nice thing about them is the availabilty of matching theatre surrounds and C-channel transducers.

Also, I've had wonderful results with modified Energy (Conoissuer C-2) speakers. Truly a lot of speaker for minor cash.

proudx · « **Reply #26 on:** 18 Jun 2004, 03:26 am »

hmm.. so many choices. perhaps of the 3 choices, 3a,2ce,and1c I can't make up my mind for the room I have all should fit nicely.

Now I watch movies a lot, maybe 60% of the time. have a 7.1 surround system now and I hate it, I have heard that with the vandys you can arrange the wall vsm-1 vandys back a few ft on the sidewalls and get imaging directly to your side or behind you, in other words with just 4 speakers you can truly get a 360 degree soundfield. 7.1 has really disappointed me,

I look forward to seeing if these vandys can filll the hole to your left and right when the side speakers are at 110degree from centerline.

Dmason · « **Reply #27 on:** 18 Jun 2004, 04:50 am »

My two cents, with the Vandys, you just might not give a shit about surround sound anymore, and get lost in sound sooo 3D and from ten feet behind the wall so as to be what I call "high calorie sound."

Im listening to mine now that night has fallen, they have about 100 hours on them, and they are beginning to make the transformation I have read about happening within this time frame. I am reeeeellly happy with this new development. I like them even more than my outstanding Coincident Partial Eclipse II, and that is saying something.

proudx · « **Reply #28 on:** 18 Jun 2004, 05:38 am »

Vandersteen 2ce + 2 vandersteen subs better than the Sig 3a? Or the improved midrange and depth in the sig 3as are worth the money alone. Or should I just go for the sig 3a and upgrade to the subs later on in life?

I could afford to buy the vandersteen 2ce new but would have to buy the sig 3a used. Is there any disadvantage to buying these vandersteens for 30 to 50% less used v/s getting them new at the dealer? I notice a big price gap between new and used ones out there.

also there is a lot of talk about using 1c in the surround channels, I think for wall mounted applications or mounting the surrounds in my columns the wall vsm-1 would be ideal.

Dan Driscoll · « **Reply #29 on:** 18 Jun 2004, 02:42 pm »

Quote from: proudx

Vandersteen 2ce + 2 vandersteen subs better than the Sig 3a? Or the improved midrange and depth in the sig 3as are worth the money alone. Or should I just go for the sig 3a and upgrade to the subs later on in life?

I could afford to buy the vandersteen 2ce new but would have to buy the sig 3a used. Is there any disadvantage to buying these vandersteens for 30 to 50% less used v/s getting them new at the dealer? I notice a big price gap between new and used ones out there.

also there is a lot of ...

Before you do anything else you really need to go listen to some speakers. If you can get an in-home demo that would be fantasitic, because you space and gear will have a big influence. Also keep in mind that whiel a lot of us are fans of the Vandys, you might not like them at all. It maybe that the Thiels, VMPS, Paradigm Signatures or some other brand sounds better to you than Vandersteens.

WRT the Vandys, what are your priorities? I don't mean how much you listen to music versus how often you watch movies, I mean which is more important to you. If music, especially 2 channel music, is your top priority, I would suggest the 3A's. If movies are #1 for you, go for the 2Ce Signatures and the subs. Of course, if you can get the 3A Sigs now and the subs later...

I think buying used is a good thing, as long as you are careful about it. Much of my system was purchased used, including my 2C's. The best bet, especially when buying used speakers, is to try to find someone reasonably local and see if they will demo it for you in their system. Don't expect to be able to demo them in you own system, unless you already know the seller. Also keep in mind that used gear is always sold "as is" or at best, with a warranty against being DOA.

Unfortunately, I know personally that speakers, especially large floorstanders, are easily damaged in shipment and getting the shipping company to pay for the repairs can be a nightmare!

Keep in mind that the seller is under no obligation to take them back or refund your money if the damage was caused by the shipping company.

Steve Rothermel · « **Reply #30 on:** 18 Jun 2004, 03:53 pm »

Great advice, Dan.

Try as many different brands as possible. Even though the environment in a store may not allow a realistic setting as relates to the home, you may still be able to compare a few brands to get you in the right direction for your tastes. It appears you may have had your mind made up already in the Vandies, though.

Sometimes our expectations chain us to a certain sound or way of listening that keeps us "in a box." (No slam intended on the Vandies - they are good speakers.) My point was to allow for an open mind and try a lot of other things before defining what you think you like.

I used to think that B&W speakers had to be some of the best speakers out on the market based on feedback from others and some slick marketing. So my mind was biased to respond, when asked about them - "yes, they are some of the best." I was being a sheep in the flock.

Then I actually had opportunities to hear them in different systems and settings. I consistently wanted to enjoy them and consistently came away disapppointed. My tastes were different than my expectations but it took a long time to find that out. Also - watch out for that "flat response is a top priority" outlook. You may miss the heart and soul of a great set of loudspeakers that can breathe life and enjoyment into a "hi-fi" sounding system. Many years ago I learned that lesson by living with a pair of Spica TC-50's. On the other hand, a few of the Canadian brands have that quality (with simple, inexpensive upgrades) but the flat response is just icing on the cake. I only bring up the brands I mentioned because I tend to think of them when recommending the best bang for the buck.

Good luck and have fun!

Eric · « **Reply #31 on:** 18 Jun 2004, 06:14 pm »

You should check out ACI as well

Mad DOg · « **Reply #32 on:** 19 Jun 2004, 02:52 am »

Quote from: proudx

I am very interested in this time and phase concept I have seen on thiels website. How important is a time and phase speaker?

The rockets look great, but I am not sure they offer the same features as the Thiels, although the time and phase stuff may not be that important...

My roon is rather dead and I haven't even applied sound treatments yet! I have acoustical tile drop ceiling with carp and 1/2" thick foam pad underneath, columns every 5ft, here are some pics..

http://gallery.avsforum.com/show ...

if ur room is rather dead, i'd recommend the Onix Ref series rather than the Rockets...

time and phase alignment is very important...once u get used to listening to a time and phase corrected speaker, there's no going back...

JLM · « **Reply #33 on:** 19 Jun 2004, 01:20 pm »

I'm a "speakers are the most important component" kind of guy, but have learned that:

1. Synergy can play an absolutely huge role. Best example I've found is Klipsch RF series speakers (horn tweeters, cone woofers, roughly 97 dB/w/m, $500-2,000 per pair). Typically found in electronic warehouses, so low expectations. Even the Klipsch vintage crowd talks them down. They sound very ordinary on typical solid state stuff found in the warehouses. But put them with a 1 - 9 wpc SET (single ended triode) tube amp and WoW! My guess is that with their high efficiency and forward presentation they blend perfectically with mellow low powered tubes versus roughly solid state that exhibit their lowest distortion at highest output.

2. A good amp can make the crummiest speakers sound decent. Last fall I heard $5 worth of drivers/crossovers thrown into small cheapy "cabinets" actually sound pleasant when driven by $4,000 worth of pre/power amps. This is an example at the extreme, but I didn't think it was possible at all.

Bottom Line: A decent dealer/manufacturer should be able to recommend good pairings in mind of all his equipment. Auditioning several such pairings will take time/effort but is essential in developing a great system.

UpDogAZ · « **Reply #34 on:** 19 Jun 2004, 09:20 pm »

I recently joined this audio circle and was just browsing the comments being made. I can't help, however, noticing that no one says much about Merlin Music. I am wondering if not many know about them, which I very highly doubt, or if the reputation here is just not as good as elsewhere. I have a pair of VSM-MM's on the way and am very excited about receiving them. Anyone have any comments on how they feel about Merlin Products??

Ryan

WEEZ · « **Reply #35 on:** 19 Jun 2004, 11:29 pm »

Hello all,

First: all the speakers mentioned on this thread are worthy contenders. I am not promoting one type or brand over another. To me, speakers are the most important component in the system- as the speaker will ultimately move the air in your room- and have the most control over the sound of your system. Second: If you listen to a variety of music- you might look for more "neutral" sounding speakers so that orchestral works and small ensemble music are both presented for what they are; as opposed to a warm speaker that favors one type of music or an analytical speaker that favors another.

As for UpDogAZ's post: you are correct that Merlin is not mentioned much at Audio Circle as opposed to AA. Congratulations on your purchase of the VSM-MM! I am a TSM-MM owner, and can only say that these are without question the most neutral, resolving, and amplifier friendly speakers I have come across. I am thru shopping for speakers. I will be posting a review soon.

As for a mention of another brand that doesn't get much attention;anyone interested might check out NSM. I think the website is nsmaudio.com. I have not heard any of these speakers- but there are links to reviews and interesting reading on the website and the prices appear to offer excellent value.

Lastly- I agree with JLM that synergy is important to achieve the best available sound. No question. But for me- I would match an excellent speaker with a not-so-excellent amplifier before I would match an excellent amplifier with a not-so-excellent speaker. The ideal, of course, would be to match all your equipment the best you can for synergy-within your budget. But start with your speakers.

Just my thoughts for now.....

WEEZ

proudx · « **Reply #36 on:** 19 Jun 2004, 11:45 pm »

well I went to the local Vandersteen dealer here in Atlanta, Ga and listened to some Signature 2ce. Boy these babies are BIG! But damn they sound good. Very natural and smooth. My only concern is I didn't feel like it was the upgrade I was hoping for. AT first I didn't feel like the soundstage depth was as great as my odyssey/Definitive Tech pro 400's although I think that is because my speakers where pulled out further from the wall at home. Audio Atlanta demonstrated the effects of pulling the speaker further out from the front wall and the soundstage did get as deep as the definitive pro tower 400s. Instruments with the 2ce where more defined in the soundstage, more focused and more natural sounding overall compared to my current Definitive technology setup. With all that said I am very proud of how my definitives sound compared to the vandys. The vandys def have better all around sound and low end extension but the differenes where not as great as I had expected. I am sure if anyone comes from a musical background they could appreciate the differences. I coming from a theater background and absolutely no music background in my history and I probably cannot appreciate an accurate speaker like the Signature 2CE. I have agreed to go back next weekend and audtion the 2CE again with my amp and this time bring a few cds I listen to at home so I can key in on the differences.

after auditioning today I really think my midrange and high freqs are pretty good for an untrained ear like mine. I guess what I am really looking for is to improve my low end without changing out my current speakers. I think there midrange and high freq are good enough for my taste. The only thing that really sucks in my current setup and the vandersteen 2ce clearly smoked was low freq response. The vandersteen was clean and fast and my low end was slow and rather muddy compared. I figure that could be fixed with a fairly decent set of subwoofers. The subwoofer would have to be a nice compromise between high q for movies and low q for sound. I have heard reviews of the Rocket uiw-10 subwoofer and it seems like it might be a nice compromise.

big thumbs up for Audio Atlanta "http://www.audioatlanta.com/" for taking the time out today to show me these speakers. Keith and pete are class acts and really know there stuff.

In reality I guess My usage will be 80% movies 20% music, maybe I should smile and be happy with what I have and if anything focus on improving the low end response.

WEEZ · « **Reply #37 on:** 19 Jun 2004, 11:59 pm »

proudx,

you got it down, my friend...

Determine you goals; determine your budget; and listen, listen, listen.

best of luck..

WEEZ

Doug_B · « **Reply #38 on:** 23 Jun 2004, 10:06 pm »

Besides the need to listen to different speakers to find what you like best, the act of listening time and again (with material that you know) will train you to be a better listener, to catch the subtleties that may elude you the first time around. You will get a more discerning ear (maybe even 2

) in the process.

On a related note, I had been listening to speakers for months when I was in shopping mode. On a whim, after I thought I had narrowed my choices down to 2, I listened to ribbon-based speakers just so that I could say I gave them a try. Guess what the outcome was.

Doug