[rollo]

   For years we used wood blinds on the rear wall for diffusion. You could actually hear the difference when the blinds were closed, open or partially open.
   Do you guys remember when Harry Pearson had a fire in his home affecting his dedicated room ? After it was rebuilt to existing condition the bass was fat, boomy and just not right. After going nuts with everything it dawned on Harry that the two fixed window lites that were on the rear wall were not reinstalled. After they were replaced the bass was back to normal. It appears the pressure or standing waves were being released through the window lite. I heard the difference with the lites back. It was not subtle.
   Very interesting. When I got home the blind that is in the right corner of my room was always closed. When I opened the blind and exposed the window the bass tightened up. Ever since it is open.
   One day bored to death we decided to move around the record racks and rearrange the room. What a mistake. Our system was voiced with the racks in say position "A" when moved the sound sucked. So the voicing or tuning started all over again. At the end of the day we got our sound back. Just by moving furniture and fittings around we got good results.
     Experiment, have fun and maybe learn a thing or two.


charles
   

[michael green MGA]

Sorry. Those are not diffusers or anything like diffusers. A single angled hard flat surface is anything but diffusion.  Diffusion by definition scatters evenly and randomly both in the time and spatial domains. This does nothing but reflect at a different angle.
   That part helped me right there,,, the above paragraph

Actually your just describing one of the blades (Sound Shutter). When you put the blades in different patterns and angles you can make what ever you like including diffusion systems. In one of our test rooms we took an RPG (your welcome for the plug) and with different Shutters recreated the same results. So if you call RPG diffusion systems diffusion and we did the same thing only using the wall as the back drop instead of a box than yes, the Sound Shutters can be used as a diffusion system if you like that.

Again some of the comments without doing seems to be a practice here. Don't you think that is just a little distracting? I'm not here to fight. I'm here to make sound and to share experiences and those experiences cover a pretty wide range in this industry. I'm also not here to pit one product against another or one "fixed" theory against another. I'm here to offer an alternative to the way that things are done to allow you to dial in your sound more than you have been able to do in the past.

Send me any product you want and I will show you that this product has an optimum and minimum response to sound. That's easy, what is harder is that the audiophile needs to realize that all these products are based on vibrations and vibrating and when we create fixed products they only go so far. Are we clear on this one so far? If we are than we must realize that a product that goes into a different vibrating room, vibrates differently. Meaning yes, I have taken diffusion products and put them in different rooms and they all tested and sounded differently. Do it for yourself and you will find the exact same thing. What I do is take this fixed product and make it tunable so that when it is moved it will sound the same as before (if that is desired). Then what I do is see if there is a more flexible way to achieve this and in the diffusion sense of things I have found (you can do your own thing to see) that a diffusion frame and back does some things that make it not always the best fit in a room whereas if you use the rooms walls and do a pattern you get a more flexible version.

Now if you guys want to start doing some of the stuff I do like werd and others have than this qualifies you to have an experienced opinion, but when you haven't this makes you just someone floating in here say world and for the true listener who is trying to get their sound right this does very little.

[michael green MGA]

I am beginning to hear that mechanical tension is directly related to soundstage tension.  For me soundstage tension has always been an issue at higher volumes on my pre amp.  Listening to music in high tension mode usually made me keep the volume down.  As I tune the tension it reduces a listening fatigue compared with everything  tightened right up. There is a definite  audible  release in the soundstage, it's quite noticeable and you get it off axis too.
 

You my friend are becoming the master of your own system, and think that is what the hobby should really be about, and will be about. The "fixed" world is well "fixed" or stuck. When people start seeing what they really have here this hobby is going to spin an about face and people are going to be looking at how to "tune" or dial in their systems. This is the world I have put my concentration into. I want to be a part of what is posible in a persons room not what they have had to settle for.

[Guy 13]

Hi Micheal and all Audio Circle members.
Do you read what you write?
Sure sounds like Jehovah witness !
Why your comments are always so long ?
I am sure if you wanted, you could cut the bla, bla by at least 50%.

Guy 13

[michael green MGA]

Hi Micheal and all Audio Circle members.
Do you read what you write?
Sure sounds like Jehovah witness !
Why your comments are always so long ?
I am sure if you wanted, you could cut the bla, bla by at least 50%.

Guy 13

Well, that's kinda funny guy13, cause your members are emailing me and saying "go for it". Their telling me that this is "way over due". And most importantly they are "tuning". But if you want a job as tuning editor, you just send me over your resume, and we will see what we can do about it.

was that short enough

[werd]

You my friend are becoming the master of your own system, and think that is what the hobby should really be about, and will be about. The "fixed" world is well "fixed" or stuck. When people start seeing what they really have here this hobby is going to spin an about face and people are going to be looking at how to "tune" or dial in their systems. This is the world I have put my concentration into. I want to be a part of what is posible in a persons room not what they have had to settle for.

I have always been an advocate for tweaking systems. I used to take the dac boards out and leave them seated on my platform since it seemed to take the edge off. This was recommended by Steve Nugent in-demonstrating a sound he was building. That was as a few years ago before I had young kids around. Now I can't do that any more since I have 5 year old. If you check out my first post on this site it shows how I am willing to try anything to get the sound I want.

Adjusting tension is a no brainer now that i have been exposed to it? But it requires a vision for what you
want in sound to go and turn the screws. Letting the system dictate to you what you hear,or want to hear only leads to a stagnant outlook on the hobby and a stubborn - "that will not work" attitude.

Tuning up system tension has plateaud my ability to get the sound I want. My only question for you is. Where do I send the Xmas card.....lol. 

[michael green MGA]

I have always been an advocate for tweaking systems. I used to take the dac boards out and leave them seated on my platform since it seemed to take the edge off. This was recommended by Steve Nugent in-demonstrating a sound he was building. That was as a few years ago before I had young kids around. Now I can't do that any more since I have 5 year old. If you check out my first post on this site it shows how I am willing to try anything to get the sound I want.

Adjusting tension is a no brainer now that i have been exposed to it? But it requires a vision for what you
want in sound to go and turn the screws. Letting the system dictate to you what you hear,or want to hear only leads to a stagnant outlook on the hobby and a stubborn - "that will not work" attitude.

Tuning up system tension has plateaud my ability to get the sound I want. My only question for you is. Where do I send the Xmas card.....lol. 

My pleasure! I've seen people jump right in and others drag their feet kicking and screaming. I have seen a lot of audiophiles so stuck that trying something requires them making a call to their audio doctor to see if it is ok. And some that are just lumps. On the other hand I've seen people that do this like they were born with a tuning bolt in their hand. I hardly hear from those except for the occasional Xmas card. They are now full fledged listeners and may look at a forum (I don't know) but have figured out how to play a stereo.

[ajzepp]

Michael:

One thing I'm trying to understand as I'm reading through your comments is whether you are advocating tuning the room to a certain point and that is the end goal, or are you advocating making frequent adjustments depending on the recording you are listening to? Is there a point at which you are able to declare, "this room is tuned!", or is it an ongoing process designed to accommodate the media?

Thanks!

[michael green MGA]

Michael:

One thing I'm trying to understand as I'm reading through your comments is whether you are advocating tuning the room to a certain point and that is the end goal, or are you advocating making frequent adjustments depending on the recording you are listening to? Is there a point at which you are able to declare, "this room is tuned!", or is it an ongoing process designed to accommodate the media?

Thanks!

hi AJ

The answer is yes, yes, sometimes, and some of us are nuts.

It's a lot easier to answer that question while listening. let me make this statement first before getting long winded. I can not remember the last time I have talked to a listener with any type of system that has said I'm done, without them coming back later and saying I'm not done, except for those with completely tunable systems. We have gotten use to saying I like or don't like that system or piece of music instead of saying, I'd like to bring that piano out into the room more and put a warmer halo around it. The piano will come out and the halo is there but if we never tune the system into that cue we will not hear it. So my answer is, if someone wants to go to a certain level with their system and stop, certain music (depending on how you tuned the system) is going to sound really good, some of it ok, and some of if pretty poor. Their are others that like everything on their system to sound the same no matter what the studio/engineer/musician did. Unfortunately there is no doubt a ton of music that never makes it to the ears that way. There are so many variables that take place between the studio and the ear that it is impossible to put an absolute system together that delivers the whole picture all the time and some experts say that the truth of it is that the end user may only be hearing 10 to 20 percent of the actual recording.

I have 3 systems set up right now. That changes all the time and goes from 2 systems to 5 at this location. One system is setup for the main purpose of space, one for settling and one for fine tuning. With the fine tuning system you could set a coke can in the room and hear it, open up the can and drink it part way put it back and hear the difference. The space system I can put on the crickets from Abbey road and hear them start 20 or so feet past the right speaker and make their way across the stage and out the other side of the room may 15 feet. Lastly the settling system is there to just keep breaking in with the same recording over and over not touching anything. I change the music on that system maybe once a week. All of these systems help me look at recordings from a lot of different angles. The thing that having these different systems do is show me how much there really is on a recording and when we do certain things how easy it is to loose a huge part of the music. They also show me what kind of systems shut down the sound and which ones have a better chance at playing a lot more music without having to make changes. One thing though that I would have to say without a doubt though is systems change. They change with the weather, the electric (even with line conditioning, sometimes more), settling and listening practices.

My advice is this. Design a system that is able to play a lot of music and if you get the erge to go further when listening to a piece don't go out and buy another system learn how to make it more flexible.

I'm going to be giving tips on designing a system that will play more and stay good sounding longer in posts to come.

[PRELUDE]

 

[PRELUDE]

 

[thunderbrick]

hi AJ

I'm going to be giving tips on designing a system that will play more and stay good sounding longer in posts to come.

So, the improvements are transitory?   

[Cheeseboy]

Hi Michael,

This is a great discussion!  Thank you for your patients and willingness to teach. 

I'm not as lucky as many here and have to listen to my system in a "Public" location in our home.   There is a never ending struggle with my loving wife on the way the room looks versus my needs on the way I would like the room to sound.  Such is life.

I would like to propose an audio myth that this discussion has the possibility to resolve.  Here is is!

The only way to get the best audio results in a room is to use static professionally produced diffusion an dampening materials. 

I would like to hear from those that use plants, furniture, window coverings and other means to achieve a high level of room dampening and diffusion to achieve better (and to your point tuneable) sound quality.  What are you using and how do you tune it?

[brooklyn]

Hi Michael,

This is a great discussion!  Thank you for your patients and willingness to teach. 

I'm not as lucky as many here and have to listen to my system in a "Public" location in our home.   There is a never ending struggle with my loving wife on the way the room looks versus my needs on the way I would like the room to sound.  Such is life.

I would like to propose an audio myth that this discussion has the possibility to resolve.  Here is is!

The only way to get the best audio results in a room is to use static professionally produced diffusion an dampening materials. 

I would like to hear from those that use plants, furniture, window coverings and other means to achieve a high level of room dampening and diffusion to achieve better (and to your point tuneable) sound quality.  What are you using and how do you tune it?

I don't know if this would fall under this category but a couple of months ago I took all of my two hundred plus albums out of my audio bench in a quest to have more room for my equipment and put them in plastic crates like the ones bought at Wally World. (picture of bench and speakers below)

I lined up five plastic crates with the albums between the speakers right in front of the window curtains. Before I moved any equipment I turned on the system and let it warm up. The sound of the system went from excellent to shrill.

I didn't think to remove the crates and albums at the time and try it without them but when I returned the albums back to the bench underneath the the equipment, the sound went back to normal.
I'm not sure but I think it was the mass loading of the audio bench.

[werd]

Hi Michael,

This is a great discussion!  Thank you for your patients and willingness to teach. 

I'm not as lucky as many here and have to listen to my system in a "Public" location in our home.   There is a never ending struggle with my loving wife on the way the room looks versus my needs on the way I would like the room to sound.  Such is life.

I would like to propose an audio myth that this discussion has the possibility to resolve.  Here is is!

The only way to get the best audio results in a room is to use static professionally produced diffusion an dampening materials. 

I would like to hear from those that use plants, furniture, window coverings and other means to achieve a high level of room dampening and diffusion to achieve better (and to your point tuneable) sound quality.  What are you using and how do you tune it?

Here is one that I know will help you.  It will help depending on the type. That rug you have in your room, what is it made of? If its acrylic thats not good. Find an area rug that your wife likes made out of wool.
Wool rugs are audio friendly as the threads are not of equal length and structure. They diffuse floor bounce. Any other material will reflect and amplify treble.  It's a big improvement and you can let your wife pick it out.

[rollo]

Looking good there Brooklyn. It appears the crates were acting as a room treatment that did not work out.



charles

[rollo]

Werd Wool is audios best friend. I have had good experiences using wool carpet, compressed wool for chassis dampening.  Our Pipedream speakers have a reveal around the outer edge to secure the speaker grill cloth. We do not use the cloth and lost the rubber cord used to hold the cloth in place.
     On a whim one day in a fabric store I noticed wool rope. HMMMM I though that wool or could work to fill the reveal. Well it did a better job than anticipated. It appears that reveal needed something in there. The result was better clarity and focus. Since the front panel is in two pieces screwed together dampening the outer edge so it does not vibrate appears to be the ticket. We then removed the Wool and the sound suffered. It lost its new found focus and clarity. Cool stuff.
 
charles

[werd]

Werd Wool is audios best friend. I have had good experiences using wool carpet, compressed wool for chassis dampening.  Our Pipedream speakers have a reveal around the outer edge to secure the speaker grill cloth. We do not use the cloth and lost the rubber cord used to hold the cloth in place.
     On a whim one day in a fabric store I noticed wool rope. HMMMM I though that wool or could work to fill the reveal. Well it did a better job than anticipated. It appears that reveal needed something in there. The result was better clarity and focus. Since the front panel is in two pieces screwed together dampening the outer edge so it does not vibrate appears to be the ticket. We then removed the Wool and the sound suffered. It lost its new found focus and clarity. Cool stuff.
 
charles

Now you got me thinking about wool for dampening in my speaks.

I don't know what else you would put on a bare floor other then wool? Definitely not bare laminate that's for sure. I had two 6x9 wool rugs that I used for long time. They were ugly as hell but you can get wool rugs cheap on sale so I bought them. My dog basically destroyed them both with barf and everything else. What the final straw was when my dog caught a dose of dog lice. Dog lice is harmless in humans but it gave my wife such a bad case of wee bee gee bees that she made me throw them out and I didnt think there was any lice on those rugs.

They went in the garbage but I tell ya I couldn't listen to my system at all. Horrible floor bounce until i went back and purchased new wool. Got 3 2x4 rugs and its back to normal. The floor bounce was so bad that I had to use the shipping bags Acoustic zen ships with the soeakers. A thin fabric that goes over the entire speaker. Those bags got rid iof the bounce but there is a muffling effect but it's not completely bad. They absorb any of the standing frequencies building up around the speaker. It's acts like an speaker grill cloth.

[rollo]

  For speaker stuffing a looser wool may work. Black hole Pad so far in my experience has had the most positive results. However not an inexpensive choice. Wool just may be a solution. What wool is the question. Oh Michael got any wool experience. Wool not Woolie  OK


charles

[michael green MGA]

Hello Audio Circle

This is Michael's assistant. Michael wanted me to hijack this post and let you know that he is remote for the weekend and will try to post, but if not will be in early next week.

Have a great weekend!

Staff, MGA/RoomTune