[JohnR]

Huh. Alright. I'm going to try multiple, but I'll have the measuring capability in place first. Multiple makes a lot of sense, a lot of people swear by it, and the graphs don't lie. I've never heard anyone say it overwhelmed or made it worse. Maybe redundant at a certain point but never worse.

Of course it's possible to make it worse. You don't yet seem to understand that subs are all about setup.

[Freo-1]

Of course it's possible to make it worse. You don't yet seem to understand that subs are all about setup.

 
Totally agree 

I'm sure Mr. Plummer would have been more than happy to sell two, but after we went over the room size and associated equipmet, he correctly steered me to try only one.  I'm thus far very happy with the results.   

[medium jim]

JohnR:

Absolutely true, it is all about set-up!  But this can also apply to a single sub. That said, I'm a proponent of 2 or more!

Jim

[OzarkTom]

I would like to try one on my Gallo Stradas. I have two Infinity's on them now, but the Stradas are much too quick for the Infinity's.

[Freo-1]

I would like to try one on my Gallo Stradas. I have two Infinity's on them now, but the Stradas are much too quick for the Infinity's.

You should.  It appears that this sub actually "works around" Hoffman's Iron Law", in that the bass output is deeper (and cleaner) than a standard subwoofer would output.  There does seem to be more involved here than just mounting one or two large drivers in a cabinet and strapping a plate amp to them for bass.

I used to think that servos was the best way to get bass.   No longer.  The approach used by the TBI seems to work even better than the servo approach.  Here is a technical explanation from TBI (with some minor edits).

The use motion feedback is a little too late when it comes to sorting it out. Once you have a problem with resonance the signature can't be removed.  With the Magellan, the lack of (driver) mass, instantaneous response by signal activation, and a critically damped acoustic system are responsible for the sound.  The port outputs all of the sound as a broadband acoustic system that favors the lowest octave.  The driver is totally isolated from the room preventing effects from room reflections.
 
I was skeptical about this until I actually listened to it.  I have found that subwoofers are difficult to integrate, and seem to sound like a whole different speaker system, unable to integrate seamlessly with the mains.  That is why some audiophiles prefer full range speakers, despite the challenges they provide.  The operating principle of the Magellen allows it to integrate in a seamless fashion with the mains, and is responsive enough for use with planar/ESL speaker types.
 
For those who are skeptical, my feedback is simply to audition it for yourself.  You will be surprised.  I know I was.
 
 
 
 
 

[stevenkelby]

Epik Legend, dual opposed 12's, inert cabinet, both extremely musical, fast, but also powerful when called upon. Blends like nothing else. Low distortion, Bipole, sealed bass. Very nice.

Hi, just wondering if you have compared to the GR Research servo subs?

I used to think that servos was the best way to get bass.   No longer.  The approach used by the TBI seems to work even better than the servo approach.

Also wondering if you had a chance to compare the TBI to the GR Research subs?

Thanks!

Steve.

[Freo-1]

Mate, have not had the opportunity yet, but I'm always keen to try new/different gear.  I had a Genesis G 928 (which is a fine sub), but the integration problems were there with that.  The TBI is so different from either thee GR Research or the Genesis, and the difference is (I think) a big part of the reason it seems to work.  It is a unique design.  The driver is not exposed anywhere.  The box is completely sealed except for the port out the back.  Due in part to the internel porting setup, it almost acts like a passive bass amplifer (an oversimplification, but one gets the idea). 

[stevenkelby]

Thanks and no worries, it does sound very interesting and I'd love to hear one in my room

Do check out the GR subs if you ever get a chance 

[Freo-1]

 After some extended listening with the TBI Magellan in the system, I can state with certainty that this is one fine subwoofer, and easily qualifies as a top performer.

The equipment used was as follows:  A Conrad Johnson clone preamp which uses 4 12AX7 tubes.  The tubes installed were a quad of NOS Tung Sols, two of which were 7025 for the gain, and two 12AX7 driver stage.  The DAC was a MHDT Havana Balanced version, with NOS Tung Sol 2C51 tubes.  The DAC was used for CD and DVD playback.  SACD playback was provided by a Modwright Oppo BD 95, with a NOS Bendix 5V4 rectifier, and 5962 Sylvania tubes.  This was connected to a Pass Labs XA 30.5 power amp, out to the speakers, which are Cary Silver Oak Model Ones.  The speakers were run full range, which were connected to the TU 200 amp high level input.  The crossover was set at 60-65 Hz, volume knob at roughly 50%, in phase, out to the Magellan.  The subwoofer was placed near the center between the mains speakers.  An SPL meter and test disc to arrive at the subwoofer settings.  One item of note was that the port needs to be a few inches away from the wall to work effectively.  Once the sub was away from the wall roughly 4’’, it easily blended with the main speakers.

First disc up was a CD of the first Dire Straits release.  From the first note, I knew this was an excellent combination.  The opening of “Down To the Waterline” revealed subtle noises/tones of the waterfront activity that were much more clearly defined.  The music presented was better that I have ever heard this recording.  The bass was natural, deep when called, for, but never drew attention to itself like the vast majority of subs.  What was truly remarkable was the fact that the entire presentation was more fleshed out regarding dynamics, low level detail, and tonal balance.  A properly filled in bottom octave uplifts the entire playback.  It was like listening to a long lost first generation master tape, where one discovers that the recording sounds better than you remember it.

Next up was a recent version of Tchaikovsky’s Nutcracker Suite (Hey, it getting to be the Christmas season, and want to keep my better half happy).  This was a revelation.  Lots of subtle instruments that were either not there or sounded muffled now were clearly defined.  What was really interesting is about halfway through the presentation, there is section where the kettle drums get played loudly.  The TBI sounded very life like, with excellent dynamics, and got down very low in the registers, something I had not experienced with this disc before.  Next up was the SACD of Rachmaninoff’s third and second piano concerto (Mercury Living Presence).  I thought I knew this piece, as I play it often.  Well, there were some new wrinkles thrown in.  The low level detail of violins clearly playing the melody in support of the piano could be clearly and succinctly heard, due to the proper rendering of the bottom octave.  I tried several other SACD classical pieces, and in each case, new and enhanced playback was the result.

After completing some classical listening, went and listened to “Tony Joe White in Concert” on DVD.  Tony Joe has a very unique style all his own, and listening to the DVD, one almost felt like you were in the German Club he was playing in.  The vocals came across as natural as one could imagine, and the instruments all sounded very realistic.  I never fully appreciated just how much the bottom octave played back correctly could enhance/improve the overall music playback. 

The take away is that this subwoofer is a truly excellent performer.  For those of us who audio playback system does not include true full range speakers, this sub can in many applications, make your speakers sound like they are full range.  I was very surprised at how well they integrate, and blend in without calling attention to themselves.  As mentioned earlier, their speed and low distortion characteristics make them good candidates for use with planar/ESL speakers.

Lastly, these are truly for music more so than Home Theater.  They will not provide a lot of boom, but will in fact accurately reproduce the bottom octave for music in a clean and effective manner.  Highly recommend for an audition.

[Freo-1]

 Well, as previously promised, here is an update review of the Magellan VII su with the Millenia amp driving the Cary’s vice the Pass Labs XA 30.5.

At first blush, it seems like a totally unfair comparison.  After all, the Pass Labs retails for ten times the price of the Millenia.  There are differences to be sure, but how does one quantify such a difference given the steep price delta?  It’s not easy, to be sure. 

Truth is, the Millenia held its own in this listening test compared to the much more expensive Pass Labs unit.  With most types of music, the Millenia amp provided an excellent playback performance with the Cary’s and the sub.  The Magellan definitely helps to flesh out the presentation, providing needed heft, weight, and authority to the overall playback chain.  With jazz, oldies, pop, R&B, the combination provides a most enjoyable musical experience, one that had me smiling at the sound.  The one issue I continue to experience with this setup is heavy symphonic sounds a bit strident, as massed horns/strings seem to tax the amp to its limit.  This is the one area where the Pass Labs unit showed why it costs what it does.  The Cary’s and Magellan sub had no problems with this music whatsoever.  On all other types of music (including heavy bass driven rock/blues) the Millenia/Magellan combination provides excellent performance.

In order to get the best possible sound from the Millenia, tried it with and without the tube preamp, and on both battery and AC.  The results were as follows:  Millenia was connected without the preamp directly from the Havana DAC or the Modwright Oppo, using the SLA battery, which provided the best subjective performance.  A quick calibration of the sub was necessary to adjust for the differences in the mains amp performance.  The Cary’s were fed full range, and the sub was connected to the TU 200 via the high (speaker) input.

First up was some 50’s jazz:  Miles Davis “Round Midnight”, followed by Cannonball Adderley “Something Else”.  Both discs on CD sounded most excellent.  The trumpet and drums on Round Midnight” were very lively, almost like you were sitting in the studio listening to the performance.  The extra LF information provided by the Magellan only added to the detail heard on the performances.  The Cannonball Adderley “Something Else” opening bass rift is one of the most recognizable in all of jazz.  The Magellan added just enough to make it sound like it was being played right in front of you.  This combination for small scale jazz is extremely enjoyable. 

Next up was some songs from the Atlantic Box set (1947/1974).  Now this was fun!  The old recordings sounded fresh again with this combination.  The Magellan provided just enough of the bottom octave to add a bit of realism to the vocals.  Can’t remember when Ray Charles sounded better.

The next recording was Tony Joe White in concert.  I had tried this before with the Pass Labs, and wanted to see what the difference was.  The first song just has Tony Joe singing and playing his guitar solo.  The guitar sounded almost live.  Vocals were very clear; again the bottom octave added a sense of realism.  Compared to the Pass Labs, this combination, while extremely enjoyable, was just short of providing that last bit of refinement that makes you think you could be sitting in the club listening to the concert.  We are talking a very small difference here, and that is driven in large part by the Cary’s interaction with the amps.  In both cases, the Magellan added a degree of refinement that enhanced the music greatly.  It brings out low level detail in a clear and natural fashion not normally experienced with hi-fi playback. 

From this point, listened to a couple of cuts from the Cream 2005 DVD.  This is where the Magellan really shines!  Jack Bruce’s bass sounded fantastic, rendering proper pitch, definition, and concussive impact that VERY few subwoofers get right, regardless of technology or methodology employed.  Way too many subs get this wrong, and the results may be impressive from loudness, but not from a musicality standpoint.  This sub gets it right in spades. 

Lastly, tried the first Dire Straits release again.  Noticed many of the same great qualities as before with the bass providing additional clarity and realism.  The differences again were minor, being attributed to the extra refinement provided by the Pass Labs amp.  The Millenia puts the listener fairly forward, whereas the Pass Labs puts the listener more towards the center of the hall.

The summary is that the Millenia and Magellan is a very musical combination, especially if yor tastes run to jazz/rock/pop music.  The listener will be rewarded with a great sounding system that will not break the bank.  Extra care needs to be taken with this combination only if one’s musical tastes lean mostly to heavy symphonic classical.  A different set of mains speakers may not exhibit the same limitations, but that is hard to say.  It’s a point that I feel must be made to be completely objective about this review. 

In summary, the Magellan’s performance was outstanding with all types of music, including classical.  I would rate the Pass Las/Magellan/Cary performance as a 10 of 10 with all types of music.  For the Millenia/Magellan/Cary performance, I would rate it somewhere between an 8.5 and a 9.0 for small scale jazz, a 9.0 for most pop/oldies/rock, but only 7 of 10 for Symphonic classical.  Considering the difference in price between the amps, the Millenia is a real bargain.   

The Magellan VIII SU/TU 200 combination together, to me, ranks as a “top performer”.  It is more musical than the majority of subs available today.  Check out the measured performance of this unit.  The specs are impressive.  Listening will confirm that that this unit is as advertised. 
 
Highly recommended for audition.   

[wisnon]

As a Maggie owner, I highly suggest you look at the Epik Legend, dual opposed 12's, inert cabinet, both extremely musical, fast, but also powerful when called upon. Blends like nothing else. Low distortion, Bipole, sealed bass. Very nice.

The Magellan is the fastest sub out there. One of the very few that can keep up with Heil tweets!

[Quiet Earth]

Does a single Magellan sub need to be behind the plane of the main speakers to integrate undetected?

If you could not center or nearly center the sub between left and right mains, would it integrate undetected placed right next to the left or right speaker?

[Freo-1]

Does a single Magellan sub need to be behind the plane of the main speakers to integrate undetected?

If you could not center or nearly center the sub between left and right mains, would it integrate undetected placed right next to the left or right speaker?

Excellent questions.  The TBI is easier to integrate by a fair amount over most subs/speakers.  I would think since Maggies are at least a foot or two from the wall, and the Magellan only needs to be a few inches away from the rear wall, putting the sub behind the mains somewhere between them would work best.  Jan had said that normally in small to moderate size rooms, only one sub is generally required.  He also said putting it in the corner should still work well, but slightly less than placing between the mains.

[Quiet Earth]

Ok, thanks. I am more interested in how they integrate with your speakers though.

If you place the sub right next to either the left or right Cary speaker, does it (the sub) still disappear? Or does the sub need to be centered between the two Carys to work best in your situation?

 The reason I ask is because my rack is wide and low, and it sits in the center - between the two speakers. That would put the sub either far left or far right of center.

[Freo-1]

The sub is pretty close to the right speaker on the inside.  It integrates very well, and was easy to get it dialed in correctly.  I used a test disc and an SPL meter.  As long as the sub was about 3 to 4 inches away from the back wall, it was easy to get a smooth and even output.

[Quiet Earth]

Ok, thanks Freo. Now I get it!  . I appreciate your patience explaining it to me. 

One more question,,, What kind of speaker wire are you using to go from the binding posts of the Cary speakers to the speaker input of the TU 200 amp?

[Freo-1]

No worries.  Happy to help out!
I'm using 14 GA stranded cables in a bi-wire setup.  I've got both left and right running from the speaker binding posts hooked into the amp, with the mono (left) out to the sub.

[stevenkelby]

The Magellan is the fastest sub out there.

That's a bold statement! What are you basing that on?

Steve.

[wisnon]

I only heard them once, but wow!

I also had a long convo with Jan the designer and based on the operational principles he explained (email mim at tbisound for more details), it was easy to surmise. Additionally, this has been confirmed by lots of anecdotal testimony.

These are no Home Theatre subs, these are easy to integrate, fast, musical subs that are designed to not muddy the upper bass or midrange.  Worth every penny of the price, even better value used, if you can find any.... my  2 cents.

[stevenkelby]

Thanks and I would love to hear one, hopefully some day.

I don't suppose you have heard the GR research servo subs?

Thanks,

Steve.