[warnerwh]

Am curious if people in other countries spend much money on interconnects/speaker cables or what the general opinion in other countries is of this phenomenon.  Thanks

[DVV]

Am curious if people in other countries spend much money on interconnects/speaker cables or what the general opinion in other countries is of this phenomenon.  Thanks

The answer I can provide is obviously valid for my locality only.

People spend nowhere near to the amount of money spent on interconnects locally (Serbia and Montenegro), totally out of any reasonable proportion with the US.

Typical prices for a pair of interconnects say 0.75m long (app. 2.5 ft), with reasonable quality RCA plugs ranges from say $10 to say $250. This encompasses products from totally unknown sources to reputable companies such as van den Hul, Oehlbach, Audioquest, Transparent Audio, and so forth.

The low end of the market is happy with what they get with the device. The mid market will buy decent interconnects, while the high end gang will go for Kimbers and such like, occassionally in the four figure class.

Two reasons for this. One, this is a poor country in financial terms, so while people know they should improve, they lack the wherewithall to do it with. Average monthly salary is around $220. Two, audio in general tends to be divided into two broad classes - as low as you can go, or as high as it gets. No mid market to speak of.

Lastly, Serbs are traditionally farmers and traders. So, you can find products which are in all but external looks complete equivalents to well known products sold around the globe, but minus the famous brand name. And minus the hefty price of that brand name.

Two days ago, I was offered an interconnect for $220. I'll wager my life that this is the original product which when repackaged with a different outer skin color and a name stuck on it costs about $950 in the UK. I haven't measured it yet, but the bet is still good. Same thing for WBT terminals (made in Taiwan, buy the same minus the WBT name and you walk out with the same at 15% the cost).

I guess being poorer makes you more aware of such things.

Cheers,
DVV

[JJAZ]

Two days ago, I was offered an interconnect for $220. I'll wager my life that this is the original product which when repackaged with a different outer skin color and a name stuck on it costs about $950 in the UK. I haven't measured it yet, but the bet is still good. Same thing for WBT terminals (made in Taiwan, buy the same minus the WBT name and you walk out with the same at 15% the cost).

I have yet to see a Taiwanese or China made terminal that gets even close to the WBT standard at a significantly lover pricetag. Besides that I am pretty sure WBT manufacturers all their terminals in Germany.
God knows I've been searching for quality terminals at a lower price tag, but never found any I could live with.

Apart from that I agree that a lot of stuff can be found at manufacturers in Taiwan/China, but without the known brand label.

[DVV]

I have yet to see a Taiwanese or China made terminal that gets even close to the WBT standard at a significantly lover pricetag. Besides that I am pretty sure WBT manufacturers all their terminals in Germany.
God knows I've been searching for quality terminals at a lower price tag, but never found any I could live with.

Apart from that I agree that a lot of stuff can be found at manufacturers in Taiwan/China, but without the known brand label.

If you are willing to foot the UPS price tag, I'll be all too happy to send you a few samples.

I am NOT willing to send it by post because that involves filling in countless forms and standing in countless lines - leftovers from the communist era.

Cheers,
DVV

[JJAZ]

If you are willing to foot the UPS price tag, I'll be all too happy to send you a few samples.

I am NOT willing to send it by post because that involves filling in countless forms and standing in countless lines - leftovers from the communist era.

Cheers,
DVV

Are you sure that the material choices are the same? It's not that difficult to make something that looks the same (f.x. Usher speakerunits which looks like Scanspeak but have never even been close to being the same materials, engineering and performance).
Most often I have seen goodlooking Taiwan terminals made from less than pure materials, i.e. not a high consistent quality.

What would the ups costs be for that parcel, I might be interested (though we will definitely not stop using WBT on our products).

[Eduardo AAVM]

Hello what I can say from my niche perspective in Mexico, where I sell mainly two cable brands is that people first don't believe much in cable improvement so a lot of work has to be done, I address this problem lending cables to interested guys to let ém use them in their system, in home without any pressure from "salesman".

I have had practically 100% succes showing people cable improvement benefits, but then there is the pricing issue.

Here in Mexico my idea is that there is no affordable audio (if you consider my country's economic reallity) but anyway there are "not so expensive alternatives" and high value products.

Well, having said that I consider that yes people here open to know about cables and most of times when they hear the differences they find how to afford one.

Regards.

[Usher44]

Are you sure that the material choices are the same? It's not that difficult to make something that looks the same (f.x. Usher speakerunits which looks like Scanspeak but have never even been close to being the same materials, engineering and performance).
Most often I have seen goodlooking Taiwan terminals made from less than pure materials, i.e. not a high consistent quality.

What would the ups costs be for that parcel, I might be interested (though we will definitely not stop using WBT on our products).

You are mistaken my friend regarding Usher drivers.  First, they use the same cones as Scan Speak.  The cone is made my Mueller in Germany and supplied to both Usher and Scan Speak.  In terms of design and engineering, Voice Coil magazine has spec'd out both the Usher tweeters and Woofers as a bit better than the Scan Speaks....  Also, the Scan Speak woofer design you are referring to is not their design.  Its actually a design that was patented by JBL in the 50's.

And, I'll challenge you on the Usher Dancer Speaker terminals vs. WBT.  The Usher terminals are manufactured in house and are the equal or better than anything I have ever seen on ANY speaker.

[Usher44]

Are you sure that the material choices are the same? It's not that difficult to make something that looks the same (f.x. Usher speakerunits which looks like Scanspeak but have never even been close to being the same materials, engineering and performance).
Most often I have seen goodlooking Taiwan terminals made from less than pure materials, i.e. not a high consistent quality.

What would the ups costs be for that parcel, I might be interested (though we will definitely not stop using WBT on our products).

You are mistaken my friend regarding Usher drivers.  First, they use the same cones as Scan Speak.  The cone is made my Mueller in Germany and supplied to both Usher and Scan Speak.  In terms of design and engineering, Voice Coil magazine has spec'd out both the Usher tweeters and Woofers as a bit better than the Scan Speaks....  Also, the Scan Speak woofer design you are referring to is not their design.  Its actually a design that was patented by JBL in the 50's.

And, I'll challenge you on the Usher Dancer Speaker terminals vs. WBT.  The Usher terminals are manufactured in house and are the equal or better than anything I have ever seen on ANY speaker.

[DVV]

Are you sure that the material choices are the same? It's not that difficult to make something that looks the same (f.x. Usher speakerunits which looks like Scanspeak but have never even been close to being the same materials, engineering and performance).
Most often I have seen goodlooking Taiwan terminals made from less than pure materials, i.e. not a high consistent quality.

I agree on consistency in many products, but as everywhere, so in Taiwan there are also very serious companies paying much attention to quality and consistency. Much like everywhere else.

Let me go local here a bit. Serbia is traditionally a farming country, with some industries running strong (e.g. textiles, decorative crystal, etc), and others being weak. Some years ago, a friend needed some high power connectors, for power transfer (meaning AC voltage, not audio), which had to be compact yet powerful (100 amps at 220 VAC, or 22 kilowatts!), obviously well insulated (safety first!) and of course, economically sustainable (a sexy way of saying cheap).

Anyway, we rocked and rolled and produced just such a connector. With its own Teflon insulation, its price is about 5 euros (if memory serves) in lots of 1,000. Now, try finding something like that at anywhere near that price and if you do, let me know.

The point being that technology is a wonderful, but very surprising thing, it can jump at you from places where you would never expect it from.

Another example. A few days ago, I was shown a new product offered by a local dealer friend, a moncrystal cable of very obviously outstanind quality. Price is 200 euros for a stereo pair, 2x0.75 m. Somehow, it looked vaguely familiar, and rang a few bells. So I borrowed a pair, went to a lab I know is well equipped and staffed with good friends, and compared it to what it reminded me of, a British "product". No matter what we did and how we did it, we always came to identical results, the differences being second digit after the decimal point. RLC on both comes out the same individually and in a trio mix, with practically speaking identical performance.

No famous brand name, different outer skin color schemes, the obvious original costing 200 euros retail, whereas the differently colored and rebadged British "product" costs exactly 5 times the price in Britain.

What would the ups costs be for that parcel, I might be interested (though we will definitely not stop using WBT on our products).

Frankly, no idea - I'll have to ask. I don't use them much, so I'm not in touch with the current prices.

But let's make sure we are talking about the same thing - I was referring to RCA Cinch plugs, the kind you turn to screw on tight to the receptacle. I think you referred to loudspeaker terminals.

Cheers,
DVV

[DVV]

You are mistaken my friend regarding Usher drivers.  First, they use the same cones as Scan Speak.  The cone is made my Mueller in Germany and supplied to both Usher and Scan Speak.  In terms of design and engineering, Voice Coil magazine has spec'd out both the Usher tweeters and Woofers as a bit better than the Scan Speaks....  Also, the Scan Speak woofer design you are referring to is not their design.  Its actually a design that was patented by JBL in the 50's.

And, I'll challenge you on the Usher Da ...

Brian, I'll second the challenge, although I have no idea what the speakers you mention even look like, let alone make music like.

The reason is simple - audio has long ago fallen prey to conventions, which have in time become both serious and dangerous.

WBT is a good example. There's no doubt those are very serious and well thought out products - but they are heavily overpriced. Very soon, you are no longer paying for the actual product, but for the PERCEPTION of that product's quality. Economics calls that "perceived value". I call it much added hype.

Before you know it, people start beliving nobody but X does it as well, which is nonsense by deafult. X may be the best just now, but will be that only until somebody comes up with a better idea. Somebody already may have, but lacks the heavy advertising money the big guns have.

To a realistically critical person, one you can't ramrod with the usual hype, some highly touted product will not be very great at all. I remember my own disappointment with some Krell amps - bass to die for, but the rest just mediocre. Sure, they are bulletproof, they will drive anything you care to call a speaker, and I'll wager they can drive a welding arc as well. This is an undoubted engineering achivement, but I do not use audio power amps to drive welding arcs, so I prefer my sound balanced. And that I did not get.

Because of that, I am willing to believe that the company you mentioned indeed is capable of producing something as good, or better than the currently most touted such product.

There is no ultimate - that's just a hypothetical ideal we strive towards, knowing we will never reach it, but trying nevertheless.

Far too much is in marketing, far too little is in truly good sound.

Cheers,
DVV

[JJAZ]

You are mistaken my friend regarding Usher drivers.  First, they use the same cones as Scan Speak.  The cone is made my Mueller in Germany and supplied to both Usher and Scan Speak.  In terms of design and engineering, Voice Coil magazine has spec'd out both the Usher tweeters and Woofers as a bit better than the Scan Speaks....  Also, the Scan Speak woofer design you are referring to is not their design.  Its actually a design that was patented by JBL in the 50's.

That's quite contradictory as to what I know. Both Peter (the other half of the JJAZ founders) and I have worked at DST (former Vifa, Scanspeak and Peerless) and consider Usher to be a China-copy of what we believe is good danish workmanship.
I'm sorry if I'm offending you, but I firmly believe that Usher is now producing copies of the drivers that Scanspeak used quite a large amount of time to develope, and that's a kind of strategy I do not like.
I do wonder however how come Usher can get the same drivers as Scanspeak as I would have thought Scanspeak had the rights to the particular cones from Mueller?
Can we agree that Usher has quite an amount of drivers that are suspiciously look-a-like to Scanspeaks?

And, I'll challenge you on the Usher Dancer Speaker terminals vs. WBT. The Usher terminals are manufactured in house and are the equal or better than anything I have ever seen on ANY speaker.

That might very well be true as I have no knowledge at all about the Usher terminals. I was merely speaking of cheap China terminals in general.

Btw: Peter and I met when we both worked for Peerless. He was a mechanical designer in the R&D department and I was doing a project for them on car audio acoustics. That's also how our specially developed 5" driver came to the world, as a side project after normal working hours

[JJAZ]

Frankly, no idea - I'll have to ask. I don't use them much, so I'm not in touch with the current prices.

But let's make sure we are talking about the same thing - I was referring to RCA Cinch plugs, the kind you turn to screw on tight to the receptacle. I think you referred to loudspeaker terminals.

Cheers,
DVV

It seems that we basically agree on most of it.. and yes, I was talking about the speaker binding posts.
A nice place to look for china stuff is http://www.globalsources.com/ or at least it's a fun place to spend some time every once in a while

[JJAZ]

Because of that, I am willing to believe that the company you mentioned indeed is capable of producing something as good, or better than the currently most touted such product.

Even though it might be so, I will still object..

What I see as the problem here is that one company spend a considerable amount of time and money on making a very good and refined product.
Sometime later a chinese company copies that particular product to almost every precise matter. Then they can sell it quite a lot cheaper than the original because they did not have to invest any time/money on the development but merely made a copy.

I can totally understand companies gets angry when they have spend so much effort on a product and shortly thereafter see a cheap china-copy.

That's not to say that there are no genuine companies in the east, just that I've seen so many copies that it's disgusting

[Usher44]

Even though it might be so, I will still object..

What I see as the problem here is that one company spend a considerable amount of time and money on making a very good and refined product.
Sometime later a chinese company copies that particular product to almost every precise matter. Then they can sell it quite a lot cheaper than the original because they did not have to invest any time/money on the development but merely made a copy.

I can totally understand companies gets angry when they have spen ...

Well, I can't speak for any other country, but what you just described above is precisely how the capitlistic system works here in the USA.  Companies are forced by market forces to find better and more efficient ways to produce goods and services.  Those that can win and those that can't are forced out of business.  Think auto industry.  Why should a company remain on top just because they came up with a product.  Also, name one product you know of that is not at least some derivative of another product.  This why patents are not infinite in nature.

[JJAZ]

This why patents are not infinite in nature.

Well.. Even if they where, the chinese companies don't care at all. I know of several cases where a chinese company have copied another product and didn't give a danm about the existing patent.
The only comment they had when confronted with the patent was: "Ok, then sue us, we don't care and by the time the trial goes to court we will have earned enough money!"

[Usher44]

This why patents are not infinite in nature.

Well.. Even if they where, the chinese companies don't care at all. I know of several cases where a chinese company have copied another product and didn't give a danm about the existing patent.
The only comment they had when confronted with the patent was: "Ok, then sue us, we don't care and by the time the trial goes to court we will have earned enough money!"

Competition is fundamental to manufacturing.  You either live with it or die by it.  Back to the Scan Speak.  As a consumer, why would I care if another company can make a product of equal or better quality at a lower price?  Sure, Usher used some of the same design qualities as Scan Speak.  However, in the process they have created a better product, that is different (better specs) at a cheaper price.  And, again, the Scan Speak woofer we are speaking of is not original either.  Its almost the same design as an old JBL motor structure.  

If I were running Scan Speak I'd fugure out how to better compete through production efficiencies and costing materials.  Also, I keep my foot on the accelerator in terms of creating new and different products that the market wants.  No one has a hold on a product or technology for

[JJAZ]

As a consumer, why would I care if another company can make a product of equal or better quality at a lower price?

To me its about values such as: pride and loyalty, loyalty in the sense that I'm loyal to companies that are innovative and develope new stuff.

On top of that I'm of course a little patriotic since I'm from Denmak

[JJAZ]

Hi all,

I'm out of here until tuesday due to a weekend getaway..

See ya all soon

[kup]

You are mistaken my friend regarding Usher drivers.  First, they use the same cones as Scan Speak.  The cone is made my Mueller in Germany and supplied to both Usher and Scan Speak.  In terms of design and engineering, Voice Coil magazine has spec'd out both the Usher tweeters and Woofers as a bit better than the Scan Speaks....  Also, the Scan Speak woofer design you are referring to is not their design.  Its actually a design that was patented by JBL in the 50's.

And, I'll challenge you on the Usher Da ...

Dear Usher

1.   Were is the engineering in using the same supplier,  K. Müller ?
2.   Your former series was on the outside at Sonus Faber copy. The drivers Scan-Speak copies. The fact that you down to the smallest detail try to copy the drivers (even the model number 4585) shows that it is a total rip off. You even copied the basket, witch for the 4585 was/is hopeless to mount. The mounting recess is too small, the mounting holes is only for Ø3 screws etc. etc. And you tweeter try’s to look like a 9700.

You product (up till you latest series) was made by the “Copyright” means “right to copy” and R&D stands for Research and Duplicate, principles

And no test or Mr. Appolito, can change that.  

On the other hand, you latest series look were cool, and doesn’t seems to be a rip of, form some one ells.
Good luck with it.  

And I’m in no doubt that a lot of terminals, incl. you own, is better or at least as good as WBT. But i just fail to see why, they then, have to look like WBT !

[kup]

Competition is fundamental to manufacturing.  You either live with it or die by it.  Back to the Scan Speak.  As a consumer, why would I care if another company can make a product of equal or better quality at a lower price?  Sure, Usher used some of the same design qualities as Scan Speak.  However, in the process they have created a better product, that is different (better specs) at a cheaper price.  And, again, the Scan Speak woofer we are speaking of is not original either.  Its almost the same design  ...

As a consumer, you should care because:

A.   If everyone, copies some on ells. There will never be some one who makes something new.
B.   As Intel says “if you always walk in someone else’s foot step, you never get in front” ore some thing like that

We in Europe and North America don’t have to fear the Chine’s, (we have survived all the other “attacks” from the far east, and we still, produce and have a higher standard of living. -And they still wants to be, live and look like us   ) But we can have a sense of pride, and buy the inventor’s stuff, instead of the copiers soft.
Witch in many cases just look the same. But fail to deliver the goods.

This doesn’t mean you should by a name or total hype money rip of. But it means that you should think a bit further ahead, then you next purges.

-It might by your last improvement, if you buy the copy…