[batsthecat]

Hi, my first post on any board anywhere!  I love live music (classical concerts, Jazz, blues) but have never had the cash for a decent set up.  Right now I have a 15 year old Pioneer receiver, Magnavox CD player, and Boston Acoustics book shelf speakers.  None of it worth saving.  I want to put together a better rig, starting from scratch.  I will spend up to $5,000 (if I have to).  Is it best to start with speakers?  And to actually go to the dealer to hear them so I know what I like, rather than depending on online or print reviews.  It would be real easy just to buy online based on what the reviewers and these boards say.  So, speakers first, and actually go and hear them? 

Thanks everybody!

 

[Blueshirt1]

Some people say start with speakers and match components to the sound while other say start are source and go the other way. Me? I loved the sound of a the Merlin speaker so I built around that.

Yes, I suggest going to listen to speakers because they do have different sound qualities and can really depend on your taste. If I was in your budget with my sound taste I would consider a used Dynaudio.

[dflee]

You will find that a lot of us here have started with speakers we
haven't heard before. Can't speak for all of us here but I made sure
I had the thirty to sixty day trial On every piece of my equipment and felt
good with my purchases. I did a lot of reading and decided on what I
wanted in a speaker and type of sound (hrz wise) and picked several before
narrowing down to the one I chose. Different equipment doesn't change the
sound of your speaker as much as it clarifies and lends detail to shine. If
your chain doesn't allow the sound to shine, doesn't mean the speakers
can't do it. a number of years back, I had a chance to get a Wadia for pretty
cheap. Got it home for a trail and thought what is the big deal with this. It
wasn't able to out perform an inexpensive cd player. It wasn't the Wadia. It
was the fact that the pre couldn't get it out. Through the changes (original
speakers) of equipment I can now hear a lot of differences in what I do
within the system and my speakers have never sounded so good.
Good luck with your endeavors and there are a great group of people here on AC.
(There will be even more once they get power back).

Don

[JerryM]

What size is your room?

[jarcher]

Ok - so this is a bit of a lazy answer, but What HiFi magazine does these recommended systems at different budget levels.  Kinda Euro-gear centric, but still interesting to get some ideas:

http://www.whathifi.com/best-buys/hi-fi-budget

And of course there's always the perennial Stereophile Recommended list - though no "system" recommendations, so matching gear maybe trickier. Does give some ideas of gear to try out at different budgets.

www.stereophile.com/content/2012-recommended-components

Up to USD$5K to me is a generous budget that could get you a kick-ass system - especially if you're willing to buy used.

Keep your eyes peeled for a thread I'm kicking off today or tomorrow in the Cheap & Cheerful Circle for system recommendations under USD$1K! Quite below your max budget, but again could give you some ideas.

Like dflee suggested though - best if possible to work w/ a good dealer that allows you to do home trial or generous return / upgrade policy - the ultimate proof of what's best for you is trying the gear in your home w/ your music!

[batsthecat]

Thanks for your input.  I called a couple of dealers today to make an appointment to come and hear some speakers: one said he doesn't make appointments and the other treated me like I was trying to borrow money!  The heck with them.  I will go forward the way Don suggested, by researching on-line and ordering from on-line retailers with good return policies.  My room is 22x12.5x7.5.  Its really our living room, has a couch, bookshelves, chairs, rugs, one side is mostly large windows.  Also, I can't see buying retail when there is so much good used equipment for sale on-line for so cheap.  I realize that dealers must demonstrate a lot of equipment to people who then go out and buy on-line or used, but by not being helpful, they seem to pushing people in that direction.  Unfortunately, because I really don't have a amp to even try out the speakers, I think I am going to buy a mainstream integrated as a first step and then order the speakers.  I'm thinking of getting something like an Exposure 20102s2 or Musical Fidelity M3i used, then try speakers, starting with Gallo Classic 3s.  But for some reason I'm also really drawn to the idea of simple low watt systems with efficient speakers, so instead of the Exposure of MF I might go for a Red Wine Signature 15 and Hoyt Bedford type 2s or Omega 6xrs.  Sorry to be so all over the place, but this is hard to get your head around when you are a true newbie.  I think I just gotta get into the game and go from there

[charmerci]

What's the Magnavox CD player? Is it a 16 bit 4x Oversampling with digital filtering?

If it is, keep it. They're really, really good. Change it last. (Unless you don't think so, then I'll be happy to take it off your hands!  )

[jaxwired]

Buy used equipment on audiogon.  This lets you try at home.  If you don't like something, you resell it.  If you are savy with your purchases, you will not pay much when you flip equipment.  Buying used also will make your $5k go a lot farther. 

One more thing, nobody can tell you the right equipment to buy.  People will just recommend what THEY like, but that is unlikely to be what you like.   You have to find that yourself.  Good luck and have fun...

[batsthecat]

Thanks for the info and support.  I had no idea my Magnavox CD player was any good - it is 4x oversampling with digital filter.  I think Audiogon is the way to go.  Can anybody tell me if the Trading Post circle on this board is also a good place to buy?

Thanks again for making a newbie feel welcome in this community.

[Blueshirt1]

I've never bought used from Audio Circle so can't say either way. But I have bought plenty from Audigon in the past and there never was a problem. They have pretty strict policies and seem to weed out the bad apples for the most part. Jax makes a great point. Check the bluebook value on Audigon and buy smart. This way an audition should only cost you shipping if you choose to resell.

[Ericus Rex]

Too bad you had a bad experience with your local dealers.  They aren't doing themselves any favors by ticking off the clientele!

AC is a good place to buy used equipment but you still have to do lots of research on your own.  Tube or ss?

[JLM]

Welcome aboard!

Are you looking for a CD based system, or vinyl, or computerized music server?

Best to further educate yourself (versus anyone's particular advice or taking shots in the dark with internet used equipment).  Pick out a variety of music (CD/flash drive) that you are familiar with (from live performances you've attended) and represents the range of music you're most interested in to audition equipment.  Yes, don't give the time of day to rude retailers.  Limit the number of serious auditions (your hearing brain can't keep them straight), but do take notes.  Look for local audio clubs and audio shows.  In home trials are best but at this point you need to develop a reference point.  If you read a few hundred (not kidding) professional reviews you can begin to "read between the lines" to learn the individual reviewers taste/values and determine if they really, really like the piece (negative reviews would be everyone's waste of time so you'll find very few, plus could be considered slanderous).

Looking for system recommendations was mentioned above.  Keep in mind internet vendors, like underwoodhifi.com, offers systems too.  But the question is do they match your wants?  Do you want me to pick out your next car?  So you should educate yourself first.   The education should start by simply asking yourself what your audio tastes are.  Do you go wild for lots of deep bass, are you a nut for digging all the detail out of a recording, how loud do you want to listen, do you crave plenty of treble?  Picking up some test tones and a sound pressure meter will help you answer some of these questions.

Symphonic/orchestrial pieces are very demanding of high spls (sound pressure levels), dynamics (instant volume swings), and frequency range versus ensembles or vocal pieces.  Small classical ensembles, jazz, and blues are far less demanding in terms of speaker size, power amp rating, and overall size/cost.

You're already picked your first piece of equipment (the room).  Proportions look quite reasonable, but don't like one side being all glass.  I'm sure domestic obligations, better known as WAF (wife acceptance factor) will severely limit what you can do in there.  How much leeway do you have in terms of speaker placement (most work best 2 - 5 feet away from walls) and listening location (avoid against the back wall)?  Do you have room/flexibility to add subwoofer(s)?  Do you have pets/kids around (to knock over speakers or mess with equipment)?  It's recommended to have speakers/listening location symetrical, is that doable?  If speakers cannot be left out where they'd work the best, you'll probably want to consider small floorstanders or standmounted speakers (with subs that would stay put if you're into large ensemble classical).

After the room, speakers are (in my opinion) the next logical component to select.  Speaker efficiency, room size, and your musical/audio tastes will dictate what amplifiers will work best.  There is no perfect speaker (at any price), so be prepared to make compromises based on your tastes.  Keep in mind that speaker designs have the hardest time of any component in trying to violate the laws of physics, so small speakers have a hard time "sounding big" (deep bass, high output).  There are tons of opinions on what the most important factors are in speaker design.  Continued reading will help you pick which factors are most important to you.

$5,000 USD is plenty to get audio satisfaction (check out the Cheap and Cheerful circle for systems discussed down to $500).  Audiogon is full of buyers compared to AC, so much quicker sales (unless its AC vendor pieces).  I've bought and sold on both.  Agon is harder to use but has safeguards.

And keep asking questions.   

[toocool4]

Hi and welcome to the forum batsthecat.

First I would like to say it does not matter at what end you start from source or speaker.

What is most important is that you listen to what you want to buy with your own music, preferably at home with the rest of your setup.
A quick hour or 2 in the dem room does not tell a true story.

I remember years ago I wanted to change my setup, I went to the hi-fi shop and listened to Naim 72 pre, Nap 140 power amp and Hi-Cap. I thought it was fantastic, then I took it home for the weekend. I could not wait to get it back after the weekend. If I had bought it after the demo, I would have regretted it.

One last thing take reviews and peoples opinions with a pinch of salt, as what people like may not be your cup of tea. Most reviewers give good reviews, as they have to also sell advertising space in their magazines.

[Blueshirt1]

Another point about the demo. It is also a good way to figure out what you do like with regard to sound. Or what you dont like. They more you can cross of what you dont like, the sooner you will arrive at what you do like.

Like any art, sound taste is subjective.  Me, I discovered that I like reveling, neutral speakers. And them warm them up a bit from the amp. So with that known it reduced the playing field significantly.  I also pay attention to reviewers that seem to have a similar taste as myself. Then look at what they use as a reference/personal system. There is still bias I am sure but I have more confidance in that then just a random review of a piece of gear in a vacuum.

[avta]

An additional element is whether you want to have seperate parts to your system; amp, preamp, dac etc. I have gone that route and still think it suits my tastes. I'm able to change or upgrade different pieces of my system as desired. For example you can have a seperate amplifier ( either a single unit or 2 mono amps), a seperate dac ( with or without it's own volume control ) etc. I don't use a seperate preamp although I have my old ones because I have a dac with it's own volume control ( Anedio dac1 ) This flexibility has turned out to be helpful for me. As far as where to start I agree with those that think it doesn't matter. It will be difficult to know what works for you until you get it in your home and listen for quite a while. Some elements of a current audio system are changing rapidly particularly dac's. For this reason I would suggest having that part of your system seperate and not going for the high end products.

[toocool4]

I don't use a seperate preamp although I have my old ones because I have a dac with it's own volume control ( Anedio dac1 )

Avta I think you are doing your set-up a disservice for not using a pre-amp, you are missing so much.

One of my friends was the same as he is a minimalist, he has a Nagra CDC, into a Belles power amp into a Fujitsu Ten TD712 speakers.

Then Nagra is a £10000 CD player with volume control, my friend thought he was getting the best out of it. I told him he needed a pre-amp, he thought not but when he did try one it was night and day difference. Guess what he now has a Belles pre in place.

[JLM]

avta/toocool4, we're drifting here but I now own my first active pre-amp and find little advantage (beyond convenience of the remote).  The key is component matching (passives are very sensitive).  In fact many integrates only use a passive pre-amp section to good effect (as they obviously were matched to the power amp section).

Yes, the overall system selection process can take years (a big part of audio is the thrill of the hunt).  The more you put into it the better the system should match your circumstances/wants.  As mentioned above at this stage you're only narrowing the field, crossing things (ribbon tweeters, tubes, brands, vinyl, types of speakers, extent of "componentization" you're comfortable with, etc.) off your list and with them the vast majority of shopping mistakes you could make.

You have two big advantages over most first time shoppers: a rather flexible budget; and more importantly experience with real (unamplified) music.  Folks that only listen to amplified/recorded music don't have a gold standard reference and can only compare to a variety of other systems/setups, none of which will ever be perfect.

[geowak]

You are lucky, since many here are giving you very intelligent tips.... follow them or you could spend thousands on a crappy sounding system.

Let's recap some..

"So you should educate yourself first" Yep JLM is on it.

"What's the size of your room" You might not need 3K watts if your in a smaller room

"The key is matching components" I think you know some of this when you wrote about flea powered amps and efficient speakers

"What is most important is that you listen to what you want to buy with your own music, preferably at home with the rest of your setup.
A quick hour or 2 in the demo room does not tell a true story"
"One last thing take reviews and peoples opinions with a pinch of salt, as what people like may not be your cup of tea. Most reviewers give good reviews, as they have to also sell advertising space in their magazines" This is so true..toocool4. I would add that it is very RISKY to buy equipment based upon other peoples thoughts and forum write ups. I did this and really regret it, since the guy who made the stuff made it very, very difficult for me to resolve issues. Never again. I would STRONGLY advise listening to a piece, and even better a system, before you buy. Even though you had bad luck with a dealer. drive farther to find a good one. You might like the combo the dealer sets up for you. Now he has done the work for you.  Also a good dealer will back up the purchase, since he is a rep of the company. If you really don't like the dealer, at least you found some equipment you listened to and liked and can buy online somewhere.


"An additional element is whether you want to have separate parts to your system; amp, preamp, dac etc. I have gone that route and still think it suits my tastes. I'm able to change or upgrade different pieces of my system as desired" This is important and I decided on separates for one system I have, and an integrated amp for another. I listened to them both at different times before I made a purchase.

"Another point about the demo. It is also a good way to figure out what you do like with regard to sound. Or what you dont like. They more you can cross of what you dont like, the sooner you will arrive at what you do like.
Like any art, sound taste is subjective.  Me, I discovered that I like reveling, neutral speakers. And them warm them up a bit from the amp. So with that known it reduced the playing field significantly" Great point Blueshirt1

I tend to disagree with some about Audiogon. Many people go through audio equipment like I change my underwear, everyday. So there are good deals, but also you can buy an amp a cat peed on, or a preamp that some wannabe tech changed the caps and transformer. Often it's a losing $$ deal. Audiogon tends to want to stay out of disputes, as I found out once. I have bought there, and it can work well. You take that risk. I probably will not in the future..

Good luck with your search. Also one more tip. If you can listen to Vandersteen 2CE Sig II speakers, they might be worth your time. Very good sound, very good on the budget, can be driven as low as 35 to 40 watts and they are a classic. IMHO

[jriggy]

Cant seem to find that thread right off the bat, from a year or so ago, with a ton of 5k system ideas... Maybe someone will know where to find it.

[sebrof]

My suggestion would be to find speakers you love, then buy an appropriate amp to drive them, then the best sourse(s) you can afford.
Your idea of getting a mainstream integrated is a good idea to get you started, but keep in mind that it will not be ideal with many speakers and potentially the speakers you might love.
Enjoy the journey, don't rush.