[APOGEE]

WooHoo!     They finally arrived and Brian, Jim Romeyn and team were there to install and tune them.  I am sure glad Brian was there to tune them.  I can see why people unaccustomed to tuning VMPS speakers would have problems getting them to sound their best.  It was amazing to watch Brian do his thing and so quickly.  Fortunately there were few problems with the room acoustics without any room treatments.  Both Brian and Jim commented that this was the best residential set-up they had heard the RM/x's in...even bettering Brians own set-up at home (which I have heard at length).  I would agree with both of them here.  The RM/x's are amazing speakers.  Different than my old and wrather large Apogee Studio Grands.  Clearer, more present mids, highs that soar forever, and bass that was both incredibly well defined and tuneful as well as gutteral when called for.  One of Brian's test recordings with a 30 Hz bass tone was amazing:  no bass over hang, solid and the type that hits you in the gut.  I played a recording with a 25 Hz tone and it was as clear and powerful as the 30 Hz tone.  So, Scott Mayo, rest assured when tuned properly, the low bass is amazing!!!!! Then there is the midbass; so tight and punchy.  Plucked double bass sounded just as it should.  Nothing lacking that I can hear yet.

My listening space is in your typical SF 1 bedroom condo with a living room/listening room that is 14x23x8, with thick wall to wall carpet and heavy Persian rugs on top of that.

As I listen more, I will post more impressions.  Gotta borrow a digital camera to take pictures so I can post those as well.

Again Brian, thanks again for your masterful tuning and set-up.

Jim, again thanks for facilitating through the whole process; you made it truly painless!!

Cheers to you guys,

Jeff

[ScottMayo]

One of Brian's test recordings with a 30 Hz bass tone was amazing: no bass over hang, solid and the type that hits you in the gut. I played a recording with a 25 Hz tone and it was as clear and powerful as the 30 Hz tone. So, Scott Mayo, rest assured when tuned properly, the low bass is amazing!!!!! Then there is the midbass; so tight and punchy. Plucked double bass sounded just as it should. Nothing lacking that I can hear yet.

I really, really, really am looking forward to having the chance to hear this for myself. Any month now *mutter*.

Did you opt for the normal-Q or high-Q passive suspension? Vitrified or Elmer's-free? Which caps option?

[APOGEE]

Hey Scott:

I opted for the TRT caps, Analysis Plus silver woofer wire, and the PR's are vitrified.  PR suspension compliance????? All of the discussion about that was going on as my speakers were being completed.  Maybe Brian can comment

[Enrico]

Apogee, please do come back to this forum and post more impressions...positives as well as negatives. I have heard the RM/X once but was not overwhelmed. You have had the benefit of expert set-up; perhaps that makes all the difference.

[ekovalsky]

WooHoo!     They finally arrived and Brian, Jim Romeyn and team were there to install and tune them.  I am sure glad Brian was there to tune them.  I can see why people unaccustomed to tuning VMPS speakers would have problems getting them to sound their best.  It was amazing to watch Brian do his thing and so quickly.  Fortunately there were few problems with the room acoustics without any room treatments.  Both Brian and Jim commented that this was the best residential set-up they had heard the RM/ ...

Congrats Apogee,

I finally got over my Divas/DAX with Muse18subs after getting the RM/X.  My room isn't terribly different than yours (14.5' x 17') with speakers on the long wall and close to it.  

I've very interested in how you place your speakers, how much putty you/Brian removed, angulation of the tweeter pod, toe in, and pot levels.  Please share when you have the time!

Enjoy your awesome system!

[rlcordeiro]

Apogee you lucky guy. I envy you. Hopefuly I will hit the Lotto tonite and be able to get me a pair.
Congrats again.
Enjoy

[Brian Cheney]

APOGEE's PR's are vitrified high compliance.  All future RM/X will use this configuration and current owners will be supplied asap at no charge.

Why this room sounded so good is beyond my understanding.  No damping beyond rug and some upholstery, plastic vertical blinds behind the speakers. big equipment rack inbetween.  

Setup took one hour, but the sound was excellent from the start.  The system was biamped with a 200W Krell for the bass and a similar power Denon SS for the mid/treble.  There was a sensitivity different of about 2dB that we compensated for by turning up the speaker level controls.

Toein and distance from back wall proved most critical.  I ended up with the speakers crossfiring 2ft in front of the listening chair (sound familiar?).  Once correctly toed we scooted the speakers towards the back wall in 1/2" increments.  There was one position about 14" out (measured from the back of the speaker) that give maximum clarity, balance, and bass response.

We removed two fingernails of putty from one speaker only, the right.

Level controls ended up at about 1:15 with the mid slightly lower than the treble.

The listening position was midroom which should have resulted in a bass null at that point.  However, bass was about the same everywhere in the room, somewhat deeper in the kitchen where the speakers were about 22ft away.  The old Studio Grands were still inroom, disconnected and facing a side wall near the back.

The owner's equipment was first-rate all the way and probably helped the sound considerably.

[ctviggen]

Now, this is where this gets confusing for me -- you removed putty from only one speaker?  My engineering mind can't take not having balance!  

Also, how hard is it to passively biamp?  I have an extra two amps of amplification, so what I did was biamp my center channel with one of them (and another amp previously used for the CC).  However, I'm thinking that it might be better to give the RM40s the power instead of the RM30C.  This would mean that I'd have my Jeff Rowland on the uppers/mids of the RM40s and my Bryston on the low end of the RM40s.  I'd have only one Bryston amp on the RM30C, but that's no big deal, as it's only used for movies anyway.  (I do note that my CC sounds better using two amps to drive it, but it sounded good before, when it only had one channel.)

Thanks!

[Brian Cheney]

The right channel carries the bass in most recordings, so I always start with the PR adjustment there.

There is no "balance" on the PR's to be adjusted.  Given the amount of mass removed the PR's remain pretty much equal.  Even given identical mass loading there are differences in the amount of glue solids the cones absorb, and in the thickness of the cones themselves.  Moving mass w/putty is under 20g to start and we might end up at 19.9g or less on one side and 19.8g on the other, it's impossible to tell other than by listening.

[Redbone]

Now, this is where this gets confusing for me -- you removed putty from only one speaker?  My engineering mind can't take not having balance!  

Also, how hard is it to passively biamp?  I have an extra two amps of amplification, so what I did was biamp my center channel with one of them (and another amp previously used for the CC).  However, I'm thinking that it might be better to give the RM40s the power instead of the RM30C.  This would mean that I'd have my Jeff Rowland on the uppers/mids of the RM40s ...

Passive biamping is easy, and adds a lot to the 40s IMHO.  You will need a mechanism for adjusting the gain between the different amps, however.  Do not feel that you have to use the Rowlands for the uppers/mids. You can also try using the amp with the most power on the woofs.  

For the long haul, IMHO, the way to go with the 40s is active biamping with an active, external crossover.  I plan on taking this one step further by having a separate amp for the woofer and mega-woofer.  The reason I plan on doing this is because the top woofer sounds absolutely magnificent when it is uncoupled from the mega-woofer.  I found this out when I did the Elmer's tweek by temporarily disconnecting the mega-woofer.  Of course this changed the load to 8 ohms from 4, and thus doubled the crossover frequency from ~180 Hz to ~360Hz.  But the speaker handled it well and sounded absolutely fanatastic in that configuration.

[ctviggen]

Hi Brian,

I was under the impression that you only took putty from one PR and not the other.  Thus, my confusion.  

Redbone,

Do you have your RM40s passively biamped? If so, did you use anything to make up the difference between the amps?  Couldn't the speaker level controls be used to take care of this difference?  I know that an outboard crossover is the way to go, but I'm trying to be cheap for now (I just moved into a house that's costing me way more than I though it would).  I would just need to change my cables and I'd be done.  And, I have a five channel amp that has two extra channels (well, now one, as I'm biamping my CC, but I wouldn't biamp).  The only reason that I'd select the JR for the highs and mids is because it's a sweet sounding amp and I don't think the Bryston will be as good.  I'll probably just leave the system the way it is now, but it'd be neat to try passive biamping.

[Redbone]

Hi Brian,

I was under the impression that you only took putty from one PR and not the other.  Thus, my confusion.  

Redbone,

Do you have your RM40s passively biamped? If so, did you use anything to make up the difference between the amps?  Couldn't the speaker level controls be used to take care of this difference?  I know that an outboard crossover is the way to go, but I'm trying to be cheap for now (I just moved into a house that's costing me way more than I though it would).  I would just need  ...

ctviggen, Yes I am passively biamping my 40s right now, it was the first change that I made and I am much happier with the sound.  I originally tried to use the lpads (level controls) to adjust the levels of the mid/tweets with the bass.  Theoretically it should work but in my case it sounded bad.  I cannot explain why.  Having a preamp or an integrated amp to fine tune the levels just sounds a LOT better to me, YMMV.  Both of my current amps have volume controls, but they are not great amps.

The reason I suggest trying the Rowlands on the bass is because a lot of very rich sound is generated by the woofers.  Having your best and most powerful amp driving them may actually sound better than having it drive the mids/tweet.  I have experimented with running:

1) just the mega-woofer
2) just the upper woofer
3) just the bass (both woofers)
4) just the Neo Panels
5) just the FST

You can easily try 3, 4 and 5 yourself.  I have found two surprising things doing this, at least to me.

1) To my ears, most of the richness and impact of the music is generated by the bass section.  Although they are crossed at ~180Hz, it is a first order 6db crossover which means that a lot of frequencies above 180Hz get through.  The frequencies between 20 and 1000 Hz are like 95% of the music, IMHO.  If you cannot get a reasonably good sound while just running the woofers, something is wrong.  It will not be a full, textured sound, but it should still be pleasing and not grainy or muffled.

2) The Neo Panels generate a surprising amount of bass, they are powerful speakers and must be crossed fairly low.  Adding some padding in their enclosure, like Zybar did, is probably a good idea.  

In my opinion, it is at best a toss-up whether to use the best, sweetest amp on the mids or the bass.  But it is easy to try both configurations.

[APOGEE]

So to clarify the system that I am using to drive the RM/x's...Sierra Denali (160/320 watts 8/4 ohm load) on the mid/treble and Krell KSA 300S (300/600watts 8/4 ohms) on the bass.  I have been thinking about why this set-up has sounded so good right from the start.  Most of my experience has been with the Apogees and when I switched the amp to a Sierra and then switched cabling from Tara Labs The One to Pure Note Cerulean, the Apogees just sang.  Never could get the low bass right in my room however, at least with the Apogee Studio subs and Krell amp.  Always overdrove the room.  It seems that the same synergy between the Sierra amp/Cerulean cables and now the RM/x exists, just like with the Apogees.  So, a random chance happening that worked out extremely well.  I feel very fortunate.

I think for the first time, I pay no attention to the equipment and just listen to the music.  It all seems to be there, and nothing draws my attention away from the musical performance.  I have a bunch of cables that I had planned to switch in and out...now, why muck it up?

Could my audio spending days be coming to a close?  Well, probably not, but I will be happy for a very long time I think...well maybe another Denali to run in monoblock differential mode for the mids/treble?????

Cheers guys,

Jeff

[ctviggen]

Well, if I decide to go the passive biamp route, I will try several different combinations.  I could use two Bryston channels per RM40, or one Bryston and one JR, and then try each way (one low and one high).  These amps have slightly different wattage and gain, and I have no way other than the speaker adjustments to make them the same.  So, I'll probably end up with the JR running the RM40s full range in the short term and think about two amps in the long term (the JR I bought is no longer being made, so the used ones are really coming down in price).

[JoshK]

ctviggen,

try to find out the input sensitivity of hte JR and the bryston your using.  That is the appropriate value to match when passive biamping I believe.  You can use a pot on the more sensitive amp to match the levels.  I'd ask Rick Schultz to make you a pair of nude ultimates attenuators once you know the sensitivities.  This would be a cheaper and probably just as effective or even more so than buying new equipment to meet your goal.

[ctviggen]

Darn!  My JR doesn't tell me this.  The specs are:
Output Power:
Continuous RMS watts
@ 8 ohms 150 watts
@ 4 ohms 275 watts
Power Bandwidth: DC to 160 kHz, -3db
Slew Rate: 30 volts/microsecond
THD + No Noise: ise: <.008%
Damping Factor: >60, 20 to 20 kHz
Gain (1 watt, 8 ohms): User Selectable Internal
26 dB or 32 dB
Input Impedance: 40k ohms
Common Mode
Rejection Ratio: >80 dB, 20 ? 20
Absolute Phase: Phase-Inverted

The specs for the Bryston:

Power Output   120 watts into 8 ohms
200 watts into 4 ohms   
Gain Select and Sensitivity   
29dB - 1.1Vin = 120W @ 8 Ohms
Input Impedance   50Kohms Single ended
20Kohms balanced   
Distortion
IM or THD+noise   < 0.005% 20Hz to 20kHz at 120 watts into8 Ohms,
<0.007% 20Hz to 20kHz at 200 watts into 4 ohms   
Noise   Measured with input shortened - 20Hz to 20kHz
>110dB below rated output 29dB gain (-73dBu)
>113dB below rated output 23dB gain (-76dBu)
>116dB below rated output 17dB gain (-79dBu)    
Slew Rate    >60 volts per microsecond   
Power Bandwidth   <1 Hz to over 100kHz   
Damping Factor   Over 500 at 20 Hz, ref. 8 ohms

[JoshK]

Bob,

I'd just email JR customer support and ask them what the input sensitivity on your particular amp is.   Tell them you are trying to biamp so you need to know the value.  They should tell you.

[tkp]

You can calculate the amp input sensitivity from the gain and power information:

Let take JR as an example:

20*log (Vout/Vin) = gain in db
Power = Vout x I = Vout^2 /R
Vout = square root (power * R)


The amp is rated at 150 Watts into 8 ohms so:

Vout = square root (150 watts * 8 ohms) = 34.64 Volts

So for 26 db gain we have:

20* log (Vout/Vin) = 26 db
Vout/Vin = 10 ^(26/20) = 10^1.3 = 19.95

Vin = Vout/19.95 = 34.64 Volt / 19.95 = 1.736 Volts

This means the amp will reach its max output when input voltage hits 1.736 Volts.


For 32 db gain we have:

20*log (Vout/Vin) = 32 db
Vout/Vin = 10 ^(32/20) = 10^1.6 = 39.81

Vin = Vout/19.95 = 34.64 Volt / 39.81 = 0.87 Volts
This means the amp will reach its max output when input voltage hits 0.87 Volts.


If you plan to use the JR amp for the mid/tweeter section and the Bryston for the woofer then you want to set the gain of the JR at 32 db and adjust the pot for the midrange down 3db to gain matched with the Bryson amp.

If you plan to use the JR amp for the woofer and the Bryston amp for the mid/high then you want to set the gain of the JR amp at 26 db and adjust the pot of the mid down 3db to gain match the Bryston amp with the JR.

I hope this help.

[ScottMayo]

I think for the first time, I pay no attention to the equipment and just listen to the music. It all seems to be there, and nothing draws my attention away from the musical performance. I have a bunch of cables that I had planned to switch in and out...now, why muck it up?

Does this mean you have cables to sell? I'm about to buy the RM/X and an amp, and, well....

[ctviggen]

Thanks, TKP.  So, now I just need to figure out how to put the JR to 32 db and to adjust the pot down by 3db.  And, to order some cables.