[bernardo]

As someone who is considering auditioning the Sanders speakers, I would be interested to hear what the Martin Logan speakers do better than the Sanders 10C. I know the Sanders has a small sweet spot comparatively but I am the Lone Ranger at my house when it comes to listening to music so that doesn’t matter to me. Every review I have read about the Sanders 10C or any of its predecessors (Innersound) which mention a comparison to Martin Logan’s favors the Sanders attributes.

[jtwrace]

As someone who is considering auditioning the Sanders speakers, I would be interested to hear what the Martin Logan speakers do better than the Sanders 10C. I know the Sanders has a small sweet spot comparatively but I am the Lone Ranger at my house when it comes to listening to music so that doesn’t matter to me. Every review I have read about the Sanders 10C or any of its predecessors (Innersound) which mention a comparison to Martin Logan’s favors the Sanders attributes.

From what I heard at RMAF, I'd be going the Sanders route if I were going back to stats.  I'm an ex ML owner.

[catastrofe]

Just my $.02, but I've heard MLs many, many times over the years.  Using those experiences as an indicator of how electrostats sound, I was never interested.  I never heard an ML speaker that I liked.

Enter Sanders, based on their no risk trial and my opinion changed 180 degrees (my opinion of ESLs, not of MLs).

Of course, everyone is entitled to his opinion, and maybe my ML experience was due to poor setup at the dealer(s).

[BruceSB]

It seems to me that the Sanders is a no brainer over the ML for one simple reason - the panel.
Sanders have an "indestructible" panel, read cat laying against the live panel & I believe a lifetime guarantee.
The ML panels last somewhere around 7 years then you need a new one (if ML will even supply you with one!!!! OR if you can afford the inflated price!!!).
It seems that the new ML owners are not as interested in their customers as the old one (ML himself).
I looked at ML pretty thoroughly a while back (you will find my posts on their forum) and there are all sorts of issues away from the "how do they sound" (actually I think they sound really good but unless you have money falling out of you pocket I think you need to be wary).
I do not really want to elaborate on that one any further.
Bruce

[josh358]

As someone who is considering auditioning the Sanders speakers, I would be interested to hear what the Martin Logan speakers do better than the Sanders 10C. I know the Sanders has a small sweet spot comparatively but I am the Lone Ranger at my house when it comes to listening to music so that doesn’t matter to me. Every review I have read about the Sanders 10C or any of its predecessors (Innersound) which mention a comparison to Martin Logan’s favors the Sanders attributes.

I think you really have to try it. As you say, the reviews favor the Sanders, but beamy speakers aren't for everybody (he says, having lived with them for many years).

[rw@cn]

As someone who is considering auditioning the Sanders speakers, I would be interested to hear what the Martin Logan speakers do better than the Sanders 10C. I know the Sanders has a small sweet spot comparatively but I am the Lone Ranger at my house when it comes to listening to music so that doesn’t matter to me. Every review I have read about the Sanders 10C or any of its predecessors (Innersound) which mention a comparison to Martin Logan’s favors the Sanders attributes.

Really "better" is subjective. This is only something you can decide. ML still has dealers. If possible, go listen. Does Sanders return policy stand for the speakers? If so, bring them home. You may have other alternatives.

Trust your ears.

[J-Pak]

Can anyone that has heard Sound Labs compare the sound to the Sanders?

[gstraley]

   I have heard the Sanders speakers at our audio club meeting and at one of our members house. They do somethings very well. I have had a number of audio friends that have heard the Sanders room at the last 2 RMAF. They liked the sound but wondered what it could sound like with better equipment.
   Roger spoke at our club meeting about a couple of years ago. He spoke for most of the meeting about his whole life story. After about 90 minutes the natives started to get restless and wanted to hear music. He went on and on for another half hour before we were able to hear his speakers and amps.
   Out of his whole life story he mentioned that he does not believe that one capacitor can sound any different than another capacitor of the same type. He has the same feeling about just about all parts that are used in a circuit board and a crossover (resistors, coils, op amps etc.)
   He does not believe that a speaker cable or interconnect can sound different from each other. I got the same impression that he has that same belief with power cords.
   He mentioned that a well designed cd player cannot sound different than another well designed cd player.
   I really wonder how good his speakers and amps could really be if he was more of a tweaker and did not have what some of us call " flat earther" mentality.
  Nice guy with a lot of interesting stories but I do not believe in his beliefs.
   

[jtwrace]

Nice guy with a lot of interesting stories but I do not believe in his beliefs.

What has been your experience with the above? 

[rbbert]

Why not accept his products for what they are; great-sounding at a very reasonable (many would say outstanding) price?  If you want to tweak, what's stopping you?

[catastrofe]

Why not accept his products for what they are; great-sounding at a very reasonable (many would say outstanding) price?  If you want to tweak, what's stopping you?

+1

I see an awful lot of armchair engineering in this hobby. . .and I'm guilty of it myself.  However, as a Sanders owner I've never felt that the products suffer due to Roger's design choices.  I, for one, am quite happy with the stellar sound of my system.

[gstraley]

   jtwrace : Not quite sure what question you are asking me. Interesting stories? or his beliefs?
   
   Rbbert:  Outstanding price. $13,000.00 ?  A great outstanding price to me is the $3,000.00 per pair GoldenEar Triton 2 speakers.

   Catastrofe:  As long as you are happy, that is all that matters. Whatever I can say is meaningless to you. Personally I have heard these speakers and the Eros (which these are an upgraded version of the Eros) speakers and have just felt that they are a very good speaker but they do not have a great 3 dimensional soundstage that other speakers in even lower price ranges can do better. Plus these really are only a one seat one person speaker. I heard the Eros at one guys house and was sitting just behind the main listeners seat. Totally different sound. I also moved my head when in the prime seat 6 inches to the left and 6 inches to the right and you can hear the sound dramatically change. These are the ultimate head in the vice speaker. If you can live with that, great!
   I always felt when listening to them that they are a warm musical speaker but lacked that inner micro detail that I have heard in other speakers. Would better parts and better internal wire help with what I feel that I am missing when I hear these speakers?
   I also compared one of his amps  (not sure which model) in my system to 2 others that I had on hand. The Sanders amp did not have the high end audio finesse that the other good solid state amps have. One of them being the Pass XA 30.5 and the other one is a custom amp from the "S" in PS Audio. Is that one of the things that I was picking up on? Now that I think about it it was his stereo amp and not the supplied amp because that one is set up for his crossover for the woofer but I believe still uses the same design.

[catastrofe]

   Catastrofe:  As long as you are happy, that is all that matters. Whatever I can say is meaningless to you.

You won't get an argument from me!   

[jtwrace]

   jtwrace : Not quite sure what question you are asking me. Interesting stories? or his beliefs?

You disagree with his beliefs so why?  What data or experience makes you say that?  No right or wrong, just curious.

[twitch54]

Just my $.02, but I've heard MLs many, many times over the years.  Using those experiences as an indicator of how electrostats sound, I was never interested.  I never heard an ML speaker that I liked.

curious as to what was the last M/L set up you listened to and what gear was driving them.

Of course, everyone is entitled to his opinion, and maybe my ML experience was due to poor setup at the dealer(s).

I'd say the odds would be good on that.

[twitch54]

   
  I do not believe in his beliefs.
 

gs, are you speaking in terms of engineering or as an 'audiophile' ???

[J-Pak]

I'm with catastrofe, only good pair of ML speakers I have heard were the CLS. All others sounded mediocre to me. The dynamic woofers never integrated all that well with the panels, and the electrostatic panels themselves weren't that realistic in timbre.

Sound Labs remain my electrostatic reference (Majestic 945 or U-PX1). But I haven't heard the Sanders.

[twitch54]

The dynamic woofers never integrated all that well with the panels, and the electrostatic panels themselves weren't that realistic in timbre.

laughable really.........considering the vast improvements made in the past 5-7 years with respect to electrostatic panel mfg (far more consistent stretching of Mylar film between stators, thanks to new mfg process). I love the CLS, a classic for sure but to say the newer panels don't have as realistic a timbre is pure nonsense.

 JPak, you must have listened to a very poor set up. Go listen to a well set up pair of CLX's and tell me they don't sound as good as the CLS you speak of, then we'll know your deaf !

[Spirit]

I have met Roger Sanders and was a guest in his house about a year ago.
His opinions and raison d'etre are based solely on logic, common sense, and proven scientific principles.
No voodoo or snake oil in his domain.
I had an almost religious experience listening to his system properly set up and I have to admit that is was
the finest stereo sound that I have ever heard.  But - remember please - this is my opinion.
As for the sound being a "one person only" system; well - this is an interesting subject.  Obviuosly anybody
who is in a room can listen to the glorious sounds that the the 10c speakers and Magtech amps produce. BUT,
there is only ONE SWEET SPOT!  That is why it is referred to as such: a SPOT and there can be only one!!
If one is searching for several sweet spots this can only be accomplished due to the reflections and off the walls of the room.  This is the main reason why Roger decided to employ straight panels and not curved panels
as per the ML speakers. 

[Jazzman53]

Unfortunately, I've not had the opportunity to hear Roger Sanders speakers but I can tell you he's a stand-up guy who's done more than anyone to help out DIY'ers.  And even knowing that DIY'ers aren't likely to buy anything, the man will still spend hours with you on the phone chatting about building speakers and his email replies are veritable encyclopedias of ESL experience.  The man obviously just loves this magnificent obsession. 

I've confirmed for myself that Mr. Sanders' design principles are solid and I'm not at all surprised to read reviews pointing out how his hybrid designs achieve a more seamless blend between the woofers and stat panels than others have achieved.   

This past March, at the Axpona Audio show in Jacksonville, I heard a 5-channel setup (+ subs) of ML CXL's.  To be honest, I wasn't that impressed... but I suspect my perceived incoherence may have been more due to the setup than the speakers themselves.  The room wasn't ideal and there just seemed to be too many sounds reaching my ears from too many directions-- which in my mind confused the imaging and lacked the purity I'm accustomed to hearing from flat panel ESL's in a 2-channel setup.  I would love to hear just a pair of those CLX's in a slightly smaller room with good acoustics.