[Folsom]

My guess is this is part of his AC conditioner that was posted some time back and I suspect he's talking about ensuring there is no residual charge in the caps if someone pulls the plug while they are charged and then gets their fingers (or other body part) across the prongs. IMO if I'm correct, you need to have the resistor across the line at all times, you cannot count on a relay and it's circuitry always working. Food for thought..

Sure... It is an AC conditioner. I just don't want to discuss it here, just discharging.

I'm not sure I want 50w or heat bleeding off at all times. A relay can easily be replaced and the life of any given relay will exceed the amount of times a unit is plugged in and unplugged. I'm not even sure a resistor would last as long as relay across the mains.

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

My guess is this is ......

I think we have spent enough bandwidth here guessing on incomplete info from the poster.
We better get it straight from the horse's mouth before we waste more time on it.

c-J

[cheap-Jack]

Hi

Sure... It is an AC conditioner. I just don't want to discuss it here, just discharging.

We have to know more about the design of yr powerline conditioner before we can come up with a better solution for you. I need a schematic of it as I find it pretty unusual for a brandname powerline conditioner got an I/P Ac cap of 100uF 120VAC so big. Is it yr own DIY stuff???

c-J

[Folsom]

Yeah it is my own, per say. The initial concept behind using the amount of capacitance isn't from me, but I've been using it in practice for years now. Depending on the unit I build, I use several different things in conjunction (CMC's, different capacitors, Bybee's, blah blah). No one has found it to be anything but the important thing they ever do for their stereo.

These units are only 100uf capacitors. I will probably upgrade them to have a 200uf across the neutral to ground soon. I am debating using 10a CMC's on each socket. The noise attenuation goes up double in some circumstances. Trouble is that I'm not sure that I think 10a is enough for the ruckus that goes on with traveling bands who will plug in a dozen things off of one power strip (17a versions are out there but they have pretty low henry, guess I could go to a giant one but I'm not sure I like the idea of increasing the size to double). Plus everything I add directly goes into the cost, which I am trying to keep down.

Just to irritate, I'm not interested in talking about the merits of design, just trying to dream up a really good safety measure for the new application.

[Speedskater]

The expert's all suggest reducing at the point of use, the amount of Neutral to Safety Ground capacitance.

IEC 61140 limits the amount of capacitance from the AC mains to the enclosure to 78 nF for 120V, 60 Hz systems.

[Folsom]

Interesting. I was unaware.

The benefits (and benign situation) of the 200uf from earth ground to neutral is hard to overstate. I will have to think about how to get around that stipulation before I consider commercial sales. Perhaps I can define a separate circuit, with a separate enclosure, within the larger enclosure.

I know ideally you would actually deploy it elsewhere within a home, but that isn't very realistic. It still works very well at the point of use. I wire it either star or off the power-in, and never anywhere down the line from either of those two points (that is important, if you don't you run into the true problem of "point of use" filtration cross-talk).

[Folsom]

Please stay on topic. I'm looking at discharge options. I'll address creating a different ELV situation in the future. (not that I understand how Audience Adept can do this and still have a commercial product)

*Issue non-existance.

The level of *current leakage, capacitance measured with an RC network, is 5.5 times lower than the dissipation (leakage) of the capacitor I use.

Important to know though, since one could exceed this limitation if they were so inclined.

[Folsom]

Actually I think problem may be solved. The relay doesn't stay on after unplugging because the voltage drop is too much, the coil won't stay active. That means I can use the normally closed on the relay in order parallel the resistor with relay coil; instant drain with a load.

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

Yeah it is my own, per say. The initial concept behind using the amount of capacitance isn't from me, but I've been using it in practice for years now.

The benefits (and benign situation) of the 200uf from earth ground to neutral is hard to overstate.

No wonder it is yr DIY stuff. Parden for my ignorance, your're the first DIYer I know now who installs a huge AC cap across live & neutral power lines. I have heard some good result from some audiophiles who installed a choke across the live/neutral powerlines for their systems. But never a huge cap, buddie!

So tell me what "benefit" you think you have got with so called AC line 'filter' with one single AC cap??

c-J

[Folsom]

PM sent.

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

PM sent.

I got yr PM. Being so busy currently, I just get the time to post you back.

One thing I don't know you know or not - the potential between the neutral powerline & the ground wire is theoretically & should be practically zero. Otherwise any potential exist, should be only a few voltage AC/DC offset will mean there is unbalanaced loading somewhere in yr house power.

So 120VAC is way way too much a cap & 100uF is therefore way way too large considering the function of the AC cap betweeen the neutral powerline & the grounding wire is to drain off common mode/differential mode RFI noises.

If yr purpose of installing the cap of such large cap is to drain off RFI nosies from the incoming power to yr audo rig, you should logically also install another cap of same capacitance btween the live powerline & grounding wire. This is a very standard practice used in most if not all powerline filters or conditioners.
So that RFI coming from the external power grid, either common mode or differential mode can be effectively drain off to the grounding wire.  Of course, the capacitance of the 2 AC filter caps should be pretty small, in term of 0.1uF or less & 450VAC in case of unlikely power surge due to lightning etc.

With such low caps, yr request for discharging the AC filter caps will not be neccessary.

c-J

[Speedskater]

Just a few random thoughts, because this is going too may directions at once:

a] RFI is strange stuff, when we draw a power line or power supply schematic, we are looking at it from a very low frequency point of view.  Then this radio frequency signal comes along and sees capacitors and inductors that are not on schematic.

b] Our concerns should be directed at noise and interference currents that a pretty much below the radio range.

c] Cheap-Jack wrote:
One thing I don't know you know or not - the potential between the neutral power-line & the ground wire is theoretically & should be practically zero. Otherwise any potential exist, should be only a few voltage AC/DC offset will mean there is unbalanced loading somewhere in yr house power.

The Safety Ground wire should have zero current and zero voltage drop.  The only time the Safety Ground has current is if there is a short circuit.
The Neutral wire's voltage drop will depend on the current draw and the total circuit resistance.

d] Your components, in the act of converting AC to DC add a lot of noise to the Hot/Neutral circuit.  The last thing that you want to do is couple that noise to the Safety Ground which is connected to your components chassis's.

e] Noise currents to not go into your ground and then to Mother Earth and disappear!  The noise currents use all handy routes to return to their sources.

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

(1) Our concerns should be directed at noise and interference currents that a pretty much below the radio range.

(2)The Neutral wire's voltage drop will depend on the current draw and the total circuit resistance.

(3) Your components, in the act of converting AC to DC add a lot of noise to the Hot/Neutral circuit.  The last thing that you want to do is couple that noise to the Safety Ground which is connected to your components chassis's.

(4) Noise currents to not go into your ground and then to Mother Earth and disappear!  The noise currents use all handy routes to return to their sources.

(1) What lower frequency you are referring??

(2) If the house central grounding & grounding wiring are done effectively, the momentarily voltage drop from the chasis to the wall outlet ground wiring should be mininal. No sweats.

(3) If there is RFI noises potentials at the chassis, it should be drained away via the grounding wire. Noway such noise should stay on the chassis UNLESS the grounding is not done properly & effectively.

(4) That's why we should avoid multi-grounding loop so as to stop RFI coupled back to the chassis.

c-J

[Speedskater]

Hi.
(1) What lower frequency you are referring??

Well below radio frequency. That's about 1MHz more or less.

(2) If the house central grounding & grounding wiring are done effectively, the momentarily voltage drop from the chassis to the wall outlet ground wiring should be minimal. No sweats.

It's not about the chassis to wall receptacle.  It's about measuring the Neutral connection to the Safety Ground connection at your component. The more current your component draws the more it's voltage will drop. (Or rise referenced to ground)

(3) If there is RFI noises potentials at the chassis, it should be drained away via the grounding wire. Noway such noise should stay on the chassis UNLESS the grounding is not done properly & effectively.

RFI doesn't work that way.  At radio frequencies, your speaker cables, interconnects and power wires (Hot, Neutral & Safety Ground) all can act as interference antennas.
Grounding sensitive components to Mother Earth can often increase RFI interference.

(4) That's why we should avoid multi-grounding loop so as to stop RFI coupled back to the chassis.

Ground Loops are about low frequency noise not radio frequency interference.

[Speedskater]

From Henry W. Ott's books and papers:
http://www.hottconsultants.com/

The AC power earth ground system is an array of long wires,  which act as antennas,  to pick up all kinds of noise and interference.  It is also heavily polluted with noisy power currents from other equipment and the power utility.  The earth is not a low impedance,  and it is far from being an equipotential.  It is more likely the cause of noise and interference than the solution to these problems.

[Speedskater]

Again from Henry W. Ott's book:
http://www.hottconsultants.com/

3.1.7  Grounding  Myths

More myths exist relating to the field of grounding than any other area of electrical engineering.  The more common of these are as follows:

1.   The earth is a low-impedance path for ground current.  False,  the impedance of the earth is orders of magnitude greater than the impedance of a copper conductor.
2.   The earth is an equipotential.  False,  this is clearly not true by the result of (1 above).
3.   The impedance of a conductor is determined by its resistance.  False,  what happened to the concept of inductive reactance?
4.   To operate with low noise,  a circuit or system must be connected to an earth ground.  False,  because airplanes, satellites, cars and battery powered laptop computers all operate fine without a ground connection.  As a mater of fact,  an earth ground is more likely to be the cause of noise problem.  More electronic system noise problems are resolved by removing (or isolating) a circuit from earth ground that by connecting it to earth ground.
5.   To reduce noise,  an electronic system should be connected to a separate “quiet ground” by using a separate, isolated ground rod.  False,  in addition to being untrue,  this approach is dangerous and violates the requirements of the NEC (electrical code/rules).
6.   An earth ground is unidirectional,  with current only flowing into the ground.  False,  because current must flow in loops,  any current that flows into  the ground must also flow out of the ground somewhere else.
7.   An isolated AC power receptacle is not grounded.  False,  the term “isolated” refers only to the method by which a receptacle is grounded,  not if it is grounded.
8.   A system designer can name ground conductors by the type of the current that they should carry (i.e., signal, power, lightning, digital, analog, quiet, noisy, etc.),  and the electrons will comply and only flow in the appropriately designated conductors.  Obviously false.

Henry W. Ott

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

(1) Well below radio frequency. That's about 1MHz more or less.

(2) It's not about the chassis to wall receptacle.  It's about measuring the Neutral connection to the Safety
Ground connection at your component. The more current your component draws the more it's voltage will drop. (Or rise referenced to ground)

(3) RFI doesn't work that way.  At radio frequencies, your speaker cables, interconnects and power wires (Hot, Neutral & Safety Ground) all can act as interference antennas.

(4) Grounding sensitive components to Mother Earth can often increase RFI interference.

(5) Ground Loops are about low frequency noise not radio frequency interference.

(1) Radio frequency is from 3KHz (VLF Very low frequency) to 300GHz. (THF Tremendous high frequency).
     So why you have chosen 1MHz?

     FYI, standard powerline filters generally start to operate to filter out RFI from 700KHz up to beyond 500MHz. The inline poweline filters (made in England) I've installed in my 120V/250V dedicated powerlines provide insertion loss to RFI peaking 52dB at 32MHz, then downslope to 37dB loss at 100MHz.

Are you telling us the powerline filters manufacturer does not know what they are doing if yr argument is correct?

(2) Please explain yr "the more current yr component draws, the more its voltage will drop". What "current" & what "voltage" across what??

(3) Yes,. that's why we need powerline RFI filters for our audio rigs.

(4) What "grounding sensitive components" you refer to???

(5) Ground loops conductors also act, as you said, RFI receiving antennae. LF is only one area of noise they may carry.

c-J

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

Again from Henry W. Ott's book:
http://www.hottconsultants.co



More myths exist relating to the field of grounding than any other area of electrical engineering.  The more common of these are as follows:

4.   To operate with low noise,  a circuit or system must be connected to an earth ground.  False,  because airplanes, satellites, cars and battery powered laptop computers all operate fine without a ground connection. 

Henry W. Ott

What do these papers got to do with the low voltage & light light current consumption by our audio equipment???

(4) Our audio equipment are NOT portable & have to be powered by the RFI polluted powerlines. Our ears can detect intermoduation of RFI onto our music. Hense we have to install effective grounding devices to remove the powerline noises. Different ballgame with portable gear, my friend.

c-J

[Folsom]

Why what I do works. The brain. You'll see people arguing but they've never heard it. Daryl wasn't even the first guy to think it up, he just understands how it works. (the information is actually ancient, and under-valued, to the point that original links are broken to say magnan who also recommends high capacitance)

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=52811.0

Anyways, happy day to everyone with inferior sound.

[Speedskater]

Hi.
What do these papers got to do with the low voltage & light light current consumption by our audio equipment???

Everything!!!  Henry W. Ott is the go to reference sourece  from DC to microwave,  from small voltage to big power.

(4) Our audio equipment are NOT portable & have to be powered by the RFI polluted powerlines. Our ears can detect intermoduation of RFI onto our music. Hense we have to install effective grounding devices to remove the powerline noises. Different ballgame with portable gear, my friend.
c-J

The book is about 850 pages long.  Don't expect every page to apply to every situation!  I doubt that many have read every page, I don't plan to.

More and more low-power audio equipment is operating off-line.

That's not how grounding to Mother Earth works.