[Laundrew]

In pursuit of the audio Holy Grail, many individuals have constantly upgraded or refined their audio equipment. Audio is an interesting pursuit as many diverse reasons exist for individuals to upgrade their gear - could it just be that we eventually become bored of our current collection of audio equipment or is it in our nature to want a new and shiny box every now and then?

I was recently reading a post where an individual expressed concerns with respect to evolving digital devices, namely DACs. This is a great observation with respect to DACs becoming obsolete very quickly due to constant upgrading - it reminds me in a way about individuals chasing the Apple "carrot on a stick."

While many of us do not mind spending good money on amplifiers or speakers as this technology is relatively stable, perhaps it is now time to reevaluate our purchasing philosophy when it comes to digital devices. Imagine purchasing a DAC in the thousands of dollars only to find out that it is been replaced in a year or so with an upgraded model - it would make me ill. High end audio is definitely way too expensive to be playing this kind of an upgrade game. With today's economy or perhaps compensate for "flat lining" or even sagging sales, manufacturers must be creative to remain profitable by introducing new or improved products and I respect this - the proverbial double edged sword?

So what are the options for the consumer now? Do we purchase a cheaper unit if we know that it will be "turned over" in a year or so, purchase a used unit or just go the new route and hang onto it for a longer period of time?

Be well...

[unincognito]

Hi Laundrew,

You raise some good points about how technology is always evolving and is it our nature to want to either improve our systems or do we just want a shiny new box.  Personally for me any ways I would have to say its a little bit of both, sure i like to have the latest and greatest but when you do get something new you always gets that warm fuzzy feeling inside.

As for companies upgrading and improving there products, this is just a natural progression.  If there is a demand and smart company will fill that demand to continue to prosper.  This is exactly what happened with the Bryston BDA-1 and BDA-2, people asked for 192k 24bit from the USB of a BDA.  So the company released what the public wanted and is currently working on an upgrade path for those who want it, but already have a BDA-1.

To be honest with a product like the BDA-1, i think people who have purchased one didn't care enough about the limited USB enough to stop them from buying it.  So it falls under the category of "I don't care" as that isn't why i bought it in the first place. 

Cheers,
Chris

Bryston ltd.

[Phil A]

I've said it before that digital/video technology changes much more rapidly.  I've changed my buying habits and won't spend over a certain amount on either.  I have a BDA-1 and have no problems with the changes.  I'm in process of digitizing the music collection, including SACDs.  At some point, I will likely get a DSD DAC.  I don't mind getting the outboard USB box and upgrading to something better than the Squeezebox Touch in the near term.  I can revisit DSD DACs and players later next year or early the year after that.  I also maintain multiple secondary systems.  I use to sell more things.  Since I have the room and secondary systems, it is an easy thing to shift something into it when newer technology becomes available.  If in a year I have the BDA-1 in a secondary system, it's not something that I feel pain or suffering about.  In the old days, when I was spending to the tune of $10k for a video projector or $7.5k for a DVD transport, it was a big deal.  Once I get the next step beyond a BDA-1, I'm likely not going to feel the need to really go further.  There comes a point where the main system is good enough that any enhancements are not dramatic and in the rare instance where something may be more noticed, then it's time to consider upgrade a particular piece.  I go to shows and see other equipment on a regular basis and right now except for a digital source (since I don't have analog), there is nothing I feel the need to upgrade in the near term in the main system.  After a move about a year and a half from now I may be looking at projectors and perhaps the new Oppo players.  If I end up with a 4k projector in the main system and a nice one in a secondary system (I have two systems now with projectors), it will be something where the quality of what I have to watch and listen to satisfies me.  Do I ever hear things I like better than my system - sure I do.  Not terribly often though and when I do it is using much more expensive and not a night and day difference.

[Mesanjah05]

Interesting topic.  It reminds me of the early days of pc's.  What I spent for an Apple 2, in 1986, which had 64k of storage, would buy at least 6 laptops today with more computing power than the mainframe of my undergrads years.

My issue is that the pc digital world has seen a major drop in prices and I too wonder where the audio digital world is heading?  It seems to be heading up in price rather than down and I'm not sure why that would be the case!  Perhaps, it because the manufacturer's know our propensity to pay the prices we do!

I will watch this trend for a while before upgrading my BDA1 and SQB Touch.

[Phil A]

Interesting topic.  It reminds me of the early days of pc's.  What I spent for an Apple 2, in 1986, which had 64k of storage, would buy at least 6 laptops today with more computing power than the mainframe of my undergrads years.

My issue is that the pc digital world has seen a major drop in prices and I too wonder where the audio digital world is heading?  It seems to be heading up in price rather than down and I'm not sure why that would be the case!  Perhaps, it because the manufacturer's know our propensity to pay the prices we do!

I will watch this trend for a while before upgrading my BDA1 and SQB Touch.

Some of it is the value of the Canadian Dollar vs. US Dollar with Bryston gear.  Not much Bryston can control in that arena - http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/ResearchPublications/prb0326-e.htm#history

[Phil A]

Hard drives/memory prices have come down.  With audio gear based on computer technology, some of it has to do with power supplies and other similar items which have not gone down in the same fashion as computers.

[Elizabeth]

I still use a Adcom DA700  for digital conversion.
I tried a Bryston DA converter, but it did not sound better than my Adcom with an 'antistatic foam stuffing' modification, in my system. So i was allowed to return the bryston DA converter to my dealer.
The Bryston was raved about in the magazines.. i was mystified as to why it did not sound better in my system than the Adcom, and checked enlessly searching for the cause.. So finally i just accepted that my Adcom must just be great.
I an totally satisfied with it to my Bryston BP-26 to bryston 4B-SST2 to mangnepan 3.6 speakers.
Having a good DAC already I am feeling pretty immune to upgrade itch on DACs.

The real solution for me was to find a really high quality tube buffer. I bought a VAC Standard tube preamp, used,  just for a tube buffer. It really solved the problem of digital glare, without curtailing the high frequencies. The glorified tube buffer cost me $1,500 used, for a $4,000 new, plus OEM mods to cap upgrade plus remote operation. So I got a fabulous deal on it.
I had tried a cheaper actual tube buffer, and it was useless. This VAC REALLY does the job in a wonderful way.
I am totally satisfied with my digital at this point.
If i won a multi million lotto, I might go for a full Dcs stack at $70,000. or so.. but I am satisfied I already HAVE exactly what i want.. so without a huge lotto win, i am set.

I do have to say, with a few tweaks to my stuff. Finally my Sony SCD777ES sound just barely slightly better than the Adcom. Both still via the VAC.

[JfTM]

Another big piece of this is does the new computer based whatever actually perform better than the one it replaces?

A huge element on the consumer side of computer based products is adding features to create new generations of products without a lot of regard for improving the base functionality.  A great example is cell phones.  It is more important to add a lot of marginal features (still camera, video, music, games, movies, TV, etc.) than to improve the functionality of the phone.  When was the last time you saw an add that emphasized "our phone works better/is clearer/etc?

So does the latest version of the new computer based whatever audio product sound better?  If it does is it worth the extra $?  A matter of individual taste.

With the BDP2/BDA2 Bryston has been pretty clear that they have added functionality over the 1s, but the functionality is not around better sound.  It is rather about meeting market demand for USB/internal drives etc.

Many other manufacturers are not so forthright.

[unincognito]

BDP1 vs BDP2

Sonically better?  they are the same, same sound card, same optimized Linux firmware.

Is the BDP-2 faster?  On paper yes

How much faster?  That's all relative, if your library is only ten thousand songs the your not going to really notice a difference; however if you have sixty thousand plus songs then yah your going to notice the extra power a 2 has over the 1.

Why did the company release a BDP-2?
People asked for it
They wanted gigabit network interface vs fast Ethernet
They asked for more memory and a faster processor
And customers wanted to stick a drive in it
People just wanted more, not everyone, but some
As a company that thoroughly believes that the customer should NOT bow to the whims of the company, but the company only exists due to the customer we listen and try our best to deliver

Well why else did we release a BDP-2? Well to do more, at tave we demo'd how the bdp-2 could double as a great sounding CD player with a rich user experience and it could potentially come in less then what we sold a BCD-1 for.  The BDP is our stepping stone into a digital age.

Chris
Bryston Ltd.

[kevin360]

Chris,

I hope my semi-humorous post that, unfortunately, entered the stage as the first reply to the initiation of the BDP-2 thread by James didn't sound as though I was criticizing Bryston for setting a tastier apple on the table after I bit into mine. It seemed an inevitable topic of discussion and I figured I'd help dispatch it quickly and honestly – not as a complaint, but in sincere admiration for Bryston's attitude towards the BDP.

Are you ready for a chuckle? I was a hold-out on the BDP because I wanted it to reproduce the disk access of my SONOS – the NAS. Bryston responded to the requests of the community for that very feature and my fate was sealed – I placed my order. Now for the punch line: I ended up using it with a USB disk drive (as a matter of preference). Ah, we audio consumers are an odd lot (I can't be the only one). Being odd, I'm sticking with my BDP-1 until the BDP-3 is released. The BDP-2 is a logical progression, well expansion is the better term. I don't think there's any 'carrot on a stick' mendacity in Bryston's continued development of a product class that's still in its infancy. Rock on! 

Cheers,
Kevin

[Laundrew]

Some of it is the value of the Canadian Dollar vs. US Dollar with Bryston gear.  Not much Bryston can control in that arena - http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/ResearchPublications/prb0326-e.htm#history

I think that prices have steadily been going up everywhere - when I purchased my 28s in 2009 (wow - time flies when you are having fun), the list price was in the upper $16K range as this reflected the addition of the new transformers which were worth the extra cost as I auditioned a pair of 28s that did not have this modification. I have heard that the 28s are over $19K now - please correct if my numbers are wrong.

Back to the digital - I have often considered jumping onto the digital bandwagon mainly for the ease of accessing my music, album covers and listings of songs as I enjoy this "user" friendly option - just like on my iPod. Unfortunately, making the decision is almost like purchasing stocks as you have to get in at the right time. 

Be well...

[sfraser]

BDP1 vs BDP2

Sonically better?  they are the same, same sound card, same optimized Linux firmware.

Is the BDP-2 faster?  On paper yes

How much faster?  That's all relative, if your library is only ten thousand songs the your not going to really notice a difference; however if you have sixty thousand plus songs then yah your going to notice the extra power a 2 has over the 1.

Why did the company release a BDP-2?
People asked for it
They wanted gigabit network interface vs fast Ethernet
They asked for more memory and a faster processor
And customers wanted to stick a drive in it
People just wanted more, not everyone, but some
As a company that thoroughly believes that the customer should NOT bow to the whims of the company, but the company only exists due to the customer we listen and try our best to deliver

Well why else did we release a BDP-2? Well to do more, at tave we demo'd how the bdp-2 could double as a great sounding CD player with a rich user experience and it could potentially come in less then what we sold a BCD-1 for.  The BDP is our stepping stone into a digital age.

Chris
Bryston Ltd.

I would imagine that being the BDP X products are based on commercially available CPU/motherboards and that you would  also be effected by  the availability of such components before they become obsolete or impossible to source? Or perhaps the products you choose have a longer commercial life span because the manf. are also catering to the industrial and embedded computing market?

Chris, has there been any thought regarding working with someone like Logitech and developing a "squeezebox" front end client for the BDP so that it could leverage the SQL database  and TCP streaming  that Squeeze Center service uses in the back end? As  you are likely aware the code is all open source, it might be a nice solution for music search functionality and  long "read times" with large music libraries?

Scott

[unincognito]

Hello,

I am by no means upset, i apologize if i have come off as aggravated, I wasn't and didn't mean to.  I guess i was aggravated, at the software keyboard on my iPhone, i really should stop posting while on a treadmill late at night typing on a 4" screen.  My goal was simply to outline our reason for the BDP-2's creation and should a customer who doesn't have either but the 1 or the 2.

As for streaming like service on the BDP's, it is something being actively looked into we hope to have a real internet radio streaming web app available on the BDP's by early next year.  Some of our BETA testers have already seen early builds of bRadio and the feedback has been positive followed by a much appreciated wish list.  However as our stance is streaming takes away from the user experience (keep in mind everything is relative) so it will always play secondary role and thus the development of these features won't progress like the others have.  For the time being, for those that want to stream perhaps the BDP isn't the best choice.

As to the hardware found in a BDP-2, the CPU is technically an off the shelf intel Atom CPU that you can find in a netbook or nettop.  However the mainboard it is attached to is an industrial grade board that has been customized to our needs to a certain degree.  Using an industrial mainboard means that it has a warranty of fives years and a production cycle life of about 7 years.  This ensures that we can warranty and support BDP's for up to five years.

Cheers,
Chris

[kevin360]

However the mainboard it is attached to is an industrial grade board that has been customized to our needs to a certain degree.  Using an industrial mainboard means that it has a warranty of fives years and a production cycle life of about 7 years.  This ensures that we can warranty and support BDP's for up to five years.

Don't sell yourself short. You should be able to support the BDP beyond the availability of the mainboard on which the current devices are based. The fact that they are attached to another board which is mounted in your chassis suggests that the chassis shouldn't have to change for future designs.

I've had email discussions with folks who took the DIY PC approach, and these threads keep giving me stronger arguments for the path I'm happy to have chosen. Well, in fairness, I have both - the PC (though not fully implemented in terms of PC functionality reduction) is in a secondary system (where I'm converting CDs to files - and currently typing this post ).

Thanks again for the deep attention to details!

I still have the SONOS for other things, but it's in the secondary system. That's also where my turntable has gone. The BDP has taken control of the cave!

[Stu Pitt]

Interesting thread, Laundrew.  There are brands that heavily cater to the "Carrot on a stick" crowd, and there are companies that'll wait till there's truly a sonic upgrade to replace a model - Musical Fidelity and Bryston, respectively.

With regard to digital products and the evolution they've had recently, part of it is the carrot on a stick, but I think it's genuinely a small part of it.  Music servers and DACs are truly in their infancy, and therefore there's a very sharp R&D curve, if you will.

I don't have the luxury of spending a ton of money on this stuff, but if I did I'd be pretty weary.  Not weary in a sense that I'd feel the companies were out to get every dime out of me possible by introducing planned obsolescence products, but weary that today's cutting edge technology that costs a ton of money will be next month's or year's entry-level stuff.

When seeing posts by newbies starting a new system, I always advise they buy the best amplification they can afford.  Amps are IMO the longest term and longer lasting products in a system.  People say speakers first, but I don't agree (although do respect why).  Moving parts wear out quicker than non-moving parts.  Rooms change, and speakers sound different in different rooms.  A good amp that drive any reasonable speaker to reasonable levels is the most solid investment IMO.

Sources and formats come and go.

But, a great sounding source will always be a teat sounding source.  A DAC mkII doesn't make the DAC mkI sound worse, does it?   The mkII is better, but the mkI didn't have an internal chip the company hid in it to start degrading the sound the day after the mkII was released to the public.

I bought the Rega DAC because it was easily the best sounding DAC I've heard in my price range.  It was definitely worth the extra money over stuff priced under it, and it was close enough to stuff priced above it.  Whenever Rega replaces it or adds a model above it, I'd be interested in hearing it, but I won't dwell on it by any means.  Why?  Because what I've got sounds as close to perfect as I'm going to get.

There's better out there.  But there'll always be better.  Some people have a harder time accepting that than others.  There's nothing wrong with chasing the holy trail if you can afford to do so. I think a few too many chase it without having the means to comfortably do so, but that's there business, not mine.  Everyone's got their own priorities; mine aren't inherently better or worse than the next guy's, they're just mine. 

[JfTM]

Fully agree, I think.

The transient nature of computer/chip based audio gear is a mix of different sound/changed features/gorilla dust.

If there is a Rega DAC 2 or 5 or whatever the choice to upgrade (IMO) is does it sound better or does it add a feature you need?

People spin in the (computer) upgrade vortex; but it really is simple (again IMO).  Does it sound better? Does it now do something you need? 

If not, why buy it?

[spinner]

 Right on