Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)

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rjbond3rd

Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« on: 15 Oct 2012, 03:21 pm »
I heard this speaker yesterday (at the RMAF audio show in Denver).  The room sounded excellent to me.  There was no sub (most other rooms sounded boomy by comparison, so lack of a sub is arguably a good way to go).

The sound was very balanced.  The treble was on the relaxed / laid-back style rather than bright / overly detailed.  For lack of a better term, it sounded "analog-ish" perhaps due in part to the Mojo Audio music server which aims to sound analog (and does).

The cabinet's front panel port has a few removable "grills" which magnetically mount -behind- the baffle, and (I was told) they modify the port size for different tunings.  I heard the "flat" option, while the others having varying degrees of "bump".

Another listener commented that "this is what it sounds like when you can't hear the cabinet" and I'm inclined to agree (short of an open baffle of course).

I read somewhere about a study (was it from Bell Labs?) which found that people don't mind giving up some bass as long as the treble is reduced in the same proportion.  Whereas the majority of speakers strive for SPL's and bass/treble extension, this particular design is going for an ear-pleasing balance emphasizing tone and clarity.

Overall, I think this is a very successful design.  If I were to offer a minor quibble, I would like to hear them while sitting in a shorter chair because I'd like to be at ear-level with the driver (these speakers are more compact than you might think).






DaveC113

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Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #1 on: 15 Oct 2012, 06:11 pm »
I like the speakers, but the woman in the room wouldn't/couldn't play music I brought on both cd and memory stick... seems strange for a room demoing a music server. Others, you can just plug the flash drive in and go. She gave me some explanation about poor internet in the hotel, I'm not sure what that has to do with plugging in a memory stick. She said to come back in the morning when it wasn't busy, but my friend and I were the only one's in the room at the time  :scratch:

The guys in the Feastrex room on the 11th floor were happy to demo my music. The Feastrex speakers played one of my test tracks (Bonobo's "Walk in the Sky") better than any speaker I heard at RMAF, and not by just a little bit. It was incredible. They weren't as good on a larger scale piece that is somewhat challenging, but those are the trade offs...


richidoo

Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #2 on: 15 Oct 2012, 06:33 pm »
Volti is usually very accommodating and friendly, they have always had CD spinners at their east coast show demos.  Volti Feastrex speakers that I heard at Capital AF last summer were the best Feastrex speakers I ever heard, and I have heard a great many over the years, and built a half dozen myself. They are tricky driver to work with, but Volti really has good ears and box tuning talent. Somebody told me there is a wood plank inside the box angled downward to redirect the rear reflection, which is important with these thin paper cones. The drivers are capable of so much "life" that any acoustic damping inside the box is audible by robbing life, and so it's usually a negative.  But you are right Dave, Feastrex 5" usually excel on certain music and just OK on others. The 9" are transcendent on some and utter fail on others. It would be fun to hear my own demo disk on these Voltis.   

DaveC113

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Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #3 on: 15 Oct 2012, 06:50 pm »
Volti is usually very accommodating and friendly, they have always had CD spinners at their east coast show demos.  Volti Feastrex speakers that I heard at Capital AF last summer were the best Feastrex speakers I ever heard, and I have heard a great many over the years, and built a half dozen myself. They are tricky driver to work with, but Volti really has good ears and box tuning talent. Somebody told me there is a wood plank inside the box angled downward to redirect the rear reflection, which is important with these thin paper cones. The drivers are capable of so much "life" that any acoustic damping inside the box is audible by robbing life, and so it's usually a negative.  But you are right Dave, Feastrex 5" usually excel on certain music and just OK on others. The 9" are transcendent on some and utter fail on others. It would be fun to hear my own demo disk on these Voltis.

The best implementation I have heard was the 5" field coils on OB a few years ago... they had custom digi x'overs and 2 15" woofers per side. Only about $200k...

The Feastrex room this year was simple BR boxes very much like the Voltis.

As far as backwave management, dc10 has a novel approach... they launch it back through the cone, significantly increasing sensitivity. You might shudder at the thought, but it seems completely transparent in it's effects on the sound quality. There is a membrane inside the speaker cab that resonates and returns the otherwise "lost"energy of the driver's backwave... Their 2 way based on a Fostex full range driver is 101 or so dB sensitive while the driver its self is "only" 97 dB... One of the best speakers at the show IMO...

ejfud

Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #4 on: 15 Oct 2012, 08:15 pm »
Beautiful speakers for sure. There is a panel on the back that is curved down from internal pictures I've seen. Would love to hear them.

A local buddy has a pair of Dnf5 field coils he is working on. Can't wait to hear them in person. I've asked if he'd post some pictures and impressions when he gets them going.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on them rjbond3rd.

rjbond3rd

Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #5 on: 15 Oct 2012, 09:15 pm »
My pleasure!  I have some reviews of other single-driver designs that I'd love to post, in time. 

DaveC113, may I ask what you thought of the bass of those boxes in the main Feastrex room (1121)?  When I was there, the sound was oh-so-sweet but since the material was very old jazz records, I could not assess the bass at all.  I'd love to hear your impressions.

Richidoo, are you still listening to single-driver designs?  I remember you (and Phil Townsend) were the earliest adopters of the D5NF (several years ago).


richidoo

Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #6 on: 15 Oct 2012, 09:55 pm »
Hey RJ, no I'm not using single driver speakers now. I very much like what they do, but I need louder speakers and flatter FR. I had a lot of fun with them and some peak listening experiences, and some major frustration. Feastrex got me into speaker building, for which I'm grateful.

  Planet10 Freddie Chang     Planet10 Maiko 1

DaveC113

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Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #7 on: 15 Oct 2012, 10:37 pm »
My pleasure!  I have some reviews of other single-driver designs that I'd love to post, in time. 

DaveC113, may I ask what you thought of the bass of those boxes in the main Feastrex room (1121)?  When I was there, the sound was oh-so-sweet but since the material was very old jazz records, I could not assess the bass at all.  I'd love to hear your impressions.

Richidoo, are you still listening to single-driver designs?  I remember you (and Phil Townsend) were the earliest adopters of the D5NF (several years ago).

Since I got to play my own tracks in the Feastrex room I can say the bass is very, very good but only down to 45-50 Hz or so...

DaveC113

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Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #8 on: 15 Oct 2012, 10:40 pm »
Hey RJ, no I'm not using single driver speakers now. I very much like what they do, but I need louder speakers and flatter FR. I had a lot of fun with them and some peak listening experiences, and some major frustration. Feastrex got me into speaker building, for which I'm grateful.

What are you using right now? The Omegas I have could be louder, that's my only complaint. Not good for cranking out the dinosaur rock or a big symphony...

richidoo

Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #9 on: 16 Oct 2012, 12:23 am »
What are you using right now?

Troel's Gravesen DTQWT-12. The Mid/Tweet/xo of this design is very satisfying dynamically and tonally, lively but well behaved. It can play symphonies well enough (for a paper driver,) and still shiver me timbers on vocals, chamber music and jazz. But the internal horns aren't my thing, so I am building new sealed boxes and modding xo to suit.

RJ, the little Freddie Chang with D5nf measured flat to 60Hz with reflex rolloff below that. They could do justice to classic rock and low cello, tenor sax. But the little cones had a large Xmax which allowed much lower bass in horn loaded enclosures. In 2008 Feastrex brought a 7 foot tall folded Voight pipe from Japan that made 20Hz, albeit with extreme group delay and no LF tonal detail. The big D5nf Maxhorn next door made 40Hz and sounded much better. But Fremer used the veneered church pipes from Japan as a reason to condemn the entire DIY movement in his Stereophile blog. Feastrex surely has had a colorful history in this country!

planet10

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Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #10 on: 16 Oct 2012, 01:40 am »
Planet10 Freddie Chang
Planet10 Maiko 1

Not P10 -- Woden Design (aka Scott Lindgren). We are closely associated -- I do all the drawings.

dave

richidoo

Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #11 on: 16 Oct 2012, 03:09 am »
Thanks for clarifying Dave!

nullspace

Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #12 on: 16 Oct 2012, 02:17 pm »
I read somewhere about a study (was it from Bell Labs?) which found that people don't mind giving up some bass as long as the treble is reduced in the same proportion.  Whereas the majority of speakers strive for SPL's and bass/treble extension, this particular design is going for an ear-pleasing balance emphasizing tone and clarity.

Paul Joppa of Bottlehead has commented on this topic a number of times. Here are his thoughts, in response to the question, "How much treble do you need for good bass?:
Quote
I'm not entirely sure this responds to the question asked, I did once make a study of the literature on treble/bass balance. Most of the work was done in the first half of the last century; Snow was one of the big names at Bell Labs. Some of the references have proved, shall we say, elusive ... :^)
 
The most useful studies I found looked at quality loss as a function of cutoff frequency. If you accept my assumption that good balance results when the bass and treble quality losses are equal, then the product of LF cutoff and HF cutoff should be approximately 630,000 Hz^2. That means 63Hz to 10kHz, or 32Hz to 20kHz, or 125Hz to 5kHz. Note that there is no particular reason to think "20Hz to 20kHz" is the right range for music! (In fact, I've always heard that hearing goes down to something like 3Hz, if the signal is loud enough. Ask Tom Danley! It's just not extremely important for music, based on the old studies.)

Various numbers have been quoted for the "magic number" over the years, from 400,000 to 1,000,000. I've never found any claimed justification for them, which is why I went back to the earlier research.

The above analysis is based on perceptual acoustics, not economics. Treble is generally cheaper than bass, so the best sound for the money may well be limited bass with extended treble. It would not be balanced, but the total quality loss would be smaller than an equal-cost design with balanced losses. Look at the classic LS-3/5. To balance it you'd want to add an octave of bass and cut an octave of treble. At the same quality level, it would be much bigger and more costly, not to mention the problems with moving the crossover and diffraction artifacts into the midrange.

Here's a link to the post over at AudioAsylum: Spectral Balance.

Hope that helps. His thoughts tend to agree with my experience.

Regards,
John

rjbond3rd

Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #13 on: 16 Oct 2012, 06:12 pm »
Hi John,

Aha, that is incredibly valuable to have the proper source and explanation, and helps explain why (some) vintage fullrangers can sound so good even when bandwidth-limited (i.e., that it's a delicate but occasionally achieved balancing act at both ends of the frequency range).  Thank you!  I appreciate it.

ejfud

Re: Feastrex Design - Volti Verreta (at RMAF)
« Reply #14 on: 16 Oct 2012, 07:44 pm »
Interesting indeed! Thanks for sharing the article.

This may explain my satisfaction with the Saba drivers in the Reso cabinets. They are beguiling and really shouldn't be.