Class A Amps

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bacmsl

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Class A Amps
« on: 14 Oct 2012, 02:04 pm »
Has Bryston ever thought about making a pure Class A powered Amp.

James Tanner

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #1 on: 14 Oct 2012, 03:05 pm »
Has Bryston ever thought about making a pure Class A powered Amp.

Hi,

Yes we have looked at in many times over the course of our history and given that 'linearity of signal input to output' is our main goal the Class A/B 2 designs we have developed as well as the Complimentary output stage just performs better.

james

Freo-1

Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #2 on: 14 Oct 2012, 03:26 pm »
Hi,

Yes we have looked at in many times over the course of our history and given that 'linearity of signal input to output' is our main goal the Class A/B 2 designs we have developed as well as the Complimentary output stage just performs better.

james

Respectfully take issue.  It depends on what you mean by "better"?  If it is simply better overall sound, I do not see how that is possible.  Class A has no crossover distortion whatsoever, while class A/B 2 will always have some amount.  Class A also lends itself to providing less or no negative feedback.
 
If better is providing more power with low distortion, then OK.  However, in absolute sound quality, Class A should be better within the given power range .  The transfer function of Class A is closer to the input signal than Class AB.  There are very good reasons (most of them sonically related) why companies such as Pass Labs offer both Class A and AB amps.  On their website, the question is asked: "Why Class A?"  Answer: "It sounds better".

James Tanner

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #3 on: 14 Oct 2012, 03:39 pm »

Respectfully take issue.  It depends on what you mean by "better"?  If it is simply better overall sound, I do not see how that is possible.  Class A has no crossover distortion whatsoever, while class A/B 2 will always have some amount.  Class A also lends itself to providing less or no negative feedback.
 
If better is providing more power with low distortion, then OK.  However, in absolute sound quality, Class A should be better within the given power range .  The transfer function of Class A is closer to the input signal than Class AB.  There are very good reasons (most of them sonically related) why companies such as Pass Labs offer both Class A and AB amps.  On their website, the question is asked: "Why Class A?"  Answer: "It sounds better".

Hi

Respectfully - Not in our experience but to each his own.

James

Elizabeth

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #4 on: 14 Oct 2012, 03:46 pm »
Quoting a company which touts Class "A" as the 'truth'? hilarious.
And the response is totally 'theory' Theory that suchand such is the 'best'.
Well gee maybe some company which actually did some testing and worked on it might know a bit about it too.
I ALWAYS love folks who quote some 'theory' as if it is an absolute truth to base thier argument on.
Usually it is most abused selling audiophile tweaks..
Anyway, the tradeoff of small furnace and wasted power alone is enough to put a damper on full class A when talking large amps.. I owned a 50 watt per channel Class A amp and it was enough to make ME swear off any big class A amp, ever.
Sorry to get in a rant, but 'theory' stuff just pisses me off.
Like the dork in high school who, while having a discussion tells you "you are just a figment of my imagination" and the solution? Is to hit him with your 'imaginary fist'.

Freo-1

Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #5 on: 14 Oct 2012, 03:47 pm »
Hi

Not in our experience but to each his own.

James

Hi James,

The response is too vague.  Class A and Class AB 2 do have a different transfer function, and as such, that issue should not be up for disagreement.   Are you stating that they will sound the same?  Are you stating that Class AB 2 will sound better than Class A? They should not, as the transfer function is different.  Granted, there is a lot that goes into the overall topology, but as a general rule, Class A should be truer to the input signal than AB2.  It is more inefficient and costly to construct and operate, but if reproducing the input signal as true as possible is the goal, then Class A has an inherent design advantage.

Freo-1

Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #6 on: 14 Oct 2012, 03:52 pm »
Quoting a company which touts Class "A" as the 'truth'? hilarious.
And the response is totally 'theory' Theory that suchand such is the 'best'.
Well gee maybe some company which actually did some testing and worked on it might know a bit about it too.
I ALWAYS love folks who quote some 'theory' as if it is an absolute truth to base thier argument on.
Usually it is most abused selling audiophile tweaks..
Anyway, the tradeoff of small furnace and wasted power alone is enough to put a damper on full class A when talking large amps.. I owned a 50 watt per channel Class A amp and it was enough to make ME swear off any big class A amp, ever.
Sorry to get in a rant, but 'theory' stuff just pisses me off.
Like the dork in high school who, while having a discussion tells you "you are just a figment of my imagination" and the solution? Is to hit him with your 'imaginary fist'.

It is not theory, it is enginering.  There are tradeoffs with any given topology.  If you like AB 2 better, fine.  With lower efficient speakers, you need the extra juice.  With more efficient speakers, you do not need it so much. 
I have had the opposite experience from you.  I had mega power amps for years, and I find a 30 wpc Class A more musical than any of the large Class A/B amps. 

Elizabeth

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #7 on: 14 Oct 2012, 03:59 pm »
The amp I had, a Forte 4a was considered a great small amp.
It was what i sold when i went for the bryston. i did a LOT of listening before the purchase, and the Bryston was far better than the Forte.
Which by 'theory' could not have been possible. so what does one do? decide the theory HAS to be true and ignore reality? or stick with reality?
I'll take reality over some theory ANY day.

James Tanner

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #8 on: 14 Oct 2012, 04:02 pm »

Hi James,

The response is too vague.  Class A and Class AB 2 do have a different transfer function, and as such, that issue should not be up for disagreement.   Are you stating that they will sound the same?  Are you stating that Class AB 2 will sound better than Class A? They should not, as the transfer function is different.  Granted, there is a lot that goes into the overall topology, but as a general rule, Class A should be truer to the input signal than AB2.  It is more inefficient and costly to construct and operate, but if reproducing the input signal as true as possible is the goal, then Class A has an inherent design advantage.

Hi

I would agree that lower crossover distortion at the zero point is easier to attain with Class A designs  but our designs are actually more linear through the transfer function than Class A designs and have none of the other drawbacks of Class A - such as many times the bias current required and the ability to disparate huge amounts of heat.

Obviously sound quality is the important factor but in our experience the amplification method that exhibits the lowest distorting - including transfer function - is the direction we want to move in. It is not like we have not considered over the years all the different types of amplification methods that have been developed - class A class D class G etc. but in our opinion the best mtheod to get a signal from input to output with as few changes as possible is where we want to be.

I realize other folks have their reasons for going in their own directions and I certainly will not arbitrarily discount their positions unless I have had the opportunity of measuring and listening to their product. I think the fact that Bryston gets accolades at many of the audio shows we do about the sound quality speaks for our approach.

James

James Tanner

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #9 on: 14 Oct 2012, 04:10 pm »
Hi Freo-1,

I did a white paper on Class A design a few years ago for Stereophile - I will see if I can find it and will post it. :thumb:

It may help explain our position better.

james

James Tanner

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #10 on: 14 Oct 2012, 04:21 pm »
Found it:

If you have followed power amplifier technology for any length of time, you will have noticed mention of "class", as Class A, Class AB, etc., and perhaps wondered exactly what this nomenclature pertained to.

These terms do not refer to quality, but to the operating parameter of the output section. Most power amplifier output stages operate in a push-pull configuration,  where the power is delivered from two power supplies on either side of ground, or zero volts. (There are some which do not, but they are relatively non-linear. Operating in push-pull, the output transistors share the load, and are theoretically required to do work only as the signal swings away from ground, in either the positive or negative direction. If the transistors are completely switched off at zero output, and only start conducting when signal is present, this is defined as Class B operation. This is an efficient way of operating the output, and the amplifier runs cool at no signal, but there is one disadvantage; The output devices always have some lag time in their operation, and thus there appears a small but potentially annoying dead zone, called "crossover distortion", at the zero point. Although this crossover nonlinearity does not necessarily add large amounts to the distortion numbers, (0.05% is probably typical), it is easy to is that hear.

Fortunately, crossover distortion can be reduced to negligible proportions by the simple expedient of running the output transistors "biased" slightly "on" at idle, so they start conducting before the output swings through the zero point. When an amplifier runs this biased output mechanism, it is referred to as "Class AB". Moderate amounts of bias are all that is needed, and as it produces only a bit of heat, this type of amp is still reasonably efficient. Crossover distortion has a number of ways to pop up its ugly little head, however, even if there is a fair amount of bias present, so the engineering of this type of amplifier must be very exacting and precise to give the lowest distortion at all frequencies. If done properly, however, there is no more accurate or lower-distortion type of amplifier available; 0.01% is typical, and 0.001% is attainable.

Some engineers prefer not to have to deal with the possibility of crossover distortion in their designs, and they choose another bias system, called "Class A", where the output transistors are biased on so much that they continuously conduct more than the full load current, even at idle. Thus, they never turn "on" or "off', theoretically obviating crossover distortion. Unfortunately, this operating system has some obvious, (and some not-so-obvious), disadvantages. Running  that much current generates a tremendous amount of heat, so the amplifier is not just inefficient, it is large and expensive, due to the huge heat-dissipating mechanisms required. This consequently warms up the whole room as a side-effect. (Nice in the winter, but remember electric heat is the most expensive kind there is). A not-so-obvious disadvantage with class A designs is that this high idling current has consequences to the distortion levels far beyond the theoretical elimination of crossover artifacts, (which even in itself is debatable).  Transistors have numerous types of distortion mechanisms, among which are deviations from linearity under conditions of simultaneous high voltage and high current. These are, of course, the exact parameters necessary to class A operation, and a typical Class A amplifier runs distortion levels at least 10 times, and often over 100 times, as high as a Class AB amplifier of similar power, or around 0.1%. A careful inspection pf the distortion spectrum also reveals that all the 'harmonics  are increased, including those represented by the crossover distortion at which the class A operation was aimed in the first place!

Another very different approach to output operation -  Class D, often erroneously thought of as "digital amplification", is actually an analog system which varies the width of the top-versus-bottom duty-cycle of a  square wave carrier frequency. The amplifier still traverses from negative to positive voltages and back again, but does so continuously, at a high frequency of perhaps 500 kHz. The time it spends at one extreme or the other is proportional to the locus, or exact voltage time relationship, of the desired signal at that moment. Since the output devices spend almost all their time at either full-on or full-off, (areas of absolute minimal dissipation), efficiency is very high, from 80 to 90%. Thus, these amplifiers produce very little heat, and do not have to be as heavy or as large as typical class AB amplifiers, (to say nothing of the class A monsters)!

There are naturally disadvantages as well. Class D, by definition, uses very large RF signals, and must be shielded and well-filtered to prevent interference and speaker damaging outputs. This in turn harms overall linearity, as well as adding to the cost, thus this is not an inexpensive technology. The overall distortion is usually on a par with Class A amplification; good but not great, at around 0.1% or so. If efficiency is your requirement, though, this is the way to go.

Next time, we will look into some other classes of amplification, such as class H, or variable power supply, as well as some interesting "combination" classes, to see if some of them might have merit.

james

Freo-1

Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #11 on: 14 Oct 2012, 04:45 pm »
Thank You,  James!
 
That is what I was after.  8)

Freo-1

Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #12 on: 14 Oct 2012, 04:52 pm »
The amp I had, a Forte 4a was considered a great small amp.
It was what i sold when i went for the bryston. i did a LOT of listening before the purchase, and the Bryston was far better than the Forte.
Which by 'theory' could not have been possible. so what does one do? decide the theory HAS to be true and ignore reality? or stick with reality?
I'll take reality over some theory ANY day.

It is not that simple.  The Forte 4A is no doubt a excellent amp.  One needs to compare "apples to apples" For example, a more meaningful comparison would be comparing a current Bryston offering to a Pass Labs X 150.5, and a XA 30.5.   One needs to consider "all the factors" (parts, design, etc) from roughly the same time period.  Now, you still may prefer the Bryston, but it would be a more accurate comparison. 
 
Again, the transfer function between Class A and AB is not theory, it is engineering, and it factual.  They are different. 

Stu Pitt

Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #13 on: 14 Oct 2012, 05:01 pm »
There are a ton of arguments in audio - Class A vs A/B, tubes vs solid state, digital vs analog, over sample rates vs non-over sampling, high-res vs redbook, and on and on.  Then there's the number of arguments for using each approach, and even more arguments from people who claim what they like is best.

What I've found...   Nothing is inherently better than anything else.  If something was inherently better than the rest, the rest would cease to be used.  8-Track anyone?

For a technology/design type that's been around for more than a few years, it's not the technology, is the implementation.  I've heard truly great examples of everything.  I've also heard some truly awful examples (to my ears anyway) of each.  Pass class A amps are fantastic.  So are Manley tube amps.  So are Halcro 'digital' amps.  So are Bryston A/B amps.

Hear what's out there, make sure it can drive your speakers the way they're supposed to be driven, and pick the best sounding amp.  Doesn't matter if it has tubes that glow in the dark, weighs more than a VW bug, throws more heat than a fireplace, or is ice cold to the touch when driven hard.  All that matters is what's coming out of it is what you want to hear.

I'm sure people would disagree.  Feel free to flame me. 

earwaxxer

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #14 on: 14 Oct 2012, 05:45 pm »
Interesting discussion. I have seen such a talk many times, but its always a good one!

 I would have to agree James on this one. I have had A/B amps that were biased toward class A up to almost 20wpc and I did not like the sound of them compared to say a well done 50wpc t-amp sound, even at low to moderate volumes, where there was no crossing over to class A/B.  There is no such thing as a 'house sound' associated with class A and class A/B. The house sound depends ENTIRELY on the utilization. It is quite possible and of course very reasonable that a given A/B amp could and does sound better than a given class A amp. That is not to say that a class A amp could and does sound better that a class A/B amp. I have read many reviews for Pass Labs amps where the reviewer was not willing to say that a given class A amp, or the amp under review, was the 'best sounding amp' they ever heard.

cheap-Jack

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #15 on: 14 Oct 2012, 06:21 pm »
Hi.


(1)  If done properly, however, there is no more accurate or lower-distortion type of amplifier available; 0.01% is typical, and 0.001% is attainable.

(2) Transistors have numerous types of distortion mechanisms, among which are deviations from linearity under conditions of simultaneous high voltage and high current. These are, of course, the exact parameters necessary to class A operation, and a typical Class A amplifier runs distortion levels at least 10 times, and often over 100 times, as high as a Class AB amplifier of similar power, or around 0.1%. A careful inspection pf the distortion spectrum also reveals that all the 'harmonics  are increased, including those represented by the crossover distortion at which the class A operation was aimed in the first place!

(3) Another very different approach to output operation -  Class D.

There are naturally disadvantages as well. Class D, by definition, uses very large RF signals, and must be shielded and well-filtered to prevent interference and speaker damaging outputs.

james

A business concern is to make money by selling products of lowest cost.
Class A power amp, though technically & sonically a better product, does not comply with the money-making principle of any business concerns, be it an amp manufacturer or a dealer.

Class A/B is more efficient, deliver much more power than class A, less cost to build & maintain/sevice.
A win-win business situation for any audio amp builders & dealers - to sell more, less maintenace/service & therefore make more money. In fact, not many consumers can tell class A, B or D sonically at all.

But as audio hobbyists who aims for better sound quality & where business is not in their audio equation.
Class A is a great temptation or Holy Grail to them, sonically.

(1) Total harmonic distortion numbers do not warrant sounding better. It all boils down to the distortion pattern. A class A tube SE power amp with 5% THD was found sounding much better than a SS amp with 0.00001% when at the same SPL. So???

(2) Sorry, that's news to me. Can you please quote me a typical Class A design/commercial product that performs so bad in THD vs a typical Class A/B  amp in the marketplace?? I am interested to know.

(3) Like it or not, MOST, most if not all, home theatre systems or low-end HT receivers employ Class D chip O/P stage to minimize their size, boost up O/P power to a few hundred watts RMS at low manufacturing cost. Cool running, compact size, hugh O/P powers & low cost - a win win situation for manufacturers, dealers & average home movie consumers. Tons of those home theatre in a box sold daily. This means busines!

c-J

James Tanner

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #16 on: 14 Oct 2012, 07:21 pm »
Hi CJ

You may be correct about it all being about the business of making money for others but certainly not at Bryston. I am in this business because of my passion for reproducing quality music and the products that make that goal possible.

I disagree that distortion numbers of 5% sounds better .... SE or otherwise.

Obvious you have to make enough money to allow the business to survive but you remember the old saying in high end audio that goes  - " know how to make a small fortune in high end audio ?? - start with a large one"   :thumb:

For me it's about spending my life providing quality products designed to hopefully provide quality music/sound to as many as possible. Any technology that allows me to come closer to the ideal of "straight wire with gain" is the direction I will take.  :thumb:

James
« Last Edit: 14 Oct 2012, 08:46 pm by James Tanner »

Stu Pitt

Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #17 on: 14 Oct 2012, 07:32 pm »
You're a truly classy guy, James.  Please don't ever change. 

cheap-Jack

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #18 on: 14 Oct 2012, 08:30 pm »
Hi.
Interesting discussion. I have seen such a talk many times, but its always a good one!

 That is not to say that a class A amp could and does sound better that a class A/B amp.

 I have read many reviews for Pass Labs amps where the reviewer was not willing to say that a given class A amp, or the amp under review, was the 'best sounding amp' they ever heard.

Yes, agreeed.

In fact, I recall I browsed over a project paper by Nelson Pass on an O/P power bi-polar transistors bias currents servo-type control variable with the I/P signal. Such 'innovative' design is to get the THD patterns closest to pure Class A O/P power topolgy without need of consuming 100% full time bias current like Class A.

Therefore higher O/P power efficiency, less demand on the power supply & yet achieving the THD pattern like a full-time Class A O/P amp.

c-J

redbook

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Re: Class A Amps
« Reply #19 on: 14 Oct 2012, 11:58 pm »
  Stu Pitt , I agree with your view on this thing about "better and best"  Thanks :thumb: