[doug s.]

laura, folks like wilson's cuz they're expensive and have cachet.  no one who can actually hear would like them because of the way they sound.  imo, of course!   

doug s.

That's a pretty broad brush stroke.  Classy.  I'd like to think some of us actually put a lot of time into sampling what's out there and making an educated decision based on all factors including sound, quality, support and price.  "IMO, of course."

sorry if it offends - yust my experience after hearing 'em a coupla times.  yes, i admit - when i heard 'em, it was under show conditions, or in a store; and i understand that's not optimal.  but, one can usually tell if one would wanna further inwestigate.  but when you hear something that - to your ears - is truly unmusical, truly bad; it does make you wonder...

ymmv,

doug s.

[jtwrace]

Dammit jtw, stop shattering people's illusions with your facts!

 

[Tyson]

Jason and I reported what we heard in the Wilson room.  Sorry, but the tweeters were hot on those speakers.  Jason and I both heard it, independently.  You are free to disagree with us, but we were there and you were not.

[ltr317]

sorry if it offends - yust my experience after hearing 'em a coupla times.  yes, i admit - when i heard 'em, it was under show conditions, or in a store; and i understand that's not optimal.  but, one can usually tell if one would wanna further inwestigate.  but when you hear something that - to your ears - is truly unmusical, truly bad; it does make you wonder...

ymmv,

doug s.

I've heard many models of Wilson speakers at stores or audio shows for the past 20+ years and at best they sounded so-so.  I've also heard many Wilson speakers with many different components in homes of friends or audio club members, and on at least three occasions they sounded excellent.  From my long experience, Wilson speakers are harder to match up well with other components than most other speaker manufacturers.  That's why I no longer make a judgment with Wilson speakers at a show.   For you to say: no one who can actually hear would like them because of the way they sound.  imo, of course!   is irresponsible.  Just because they are not your cup of tea, doesn't mean other people don't prefer the flavor.  And other people can hear as well as you. 

[Scottdazzle]

I just got home from RMAF and read this thread.  I plan to post my show impressions tomorrow but could not let this thread go without comment.  The Wilsons were musically uninvolving. IMO they are the poster child of what's wrong with high end audio: built like tanks, high tech, impressive to the casual observer, and utterly uncompetitive with musically faithful components costing much less.  I heard dozens of speakers I feel are better than the Wilsons at the show. I have no earthly idea why anybody with a love of music would prefer these to any one of 100 or so other speakers at the show. Tyson, Pez, and Vinyl Lady's comments are spot on.

[doug s.]

I've heard many models of Wilson speakers at stores or audio shows for the past 20+ years and at best they sounded so-so.  I've also heard many Wilson speakers with many different components in homes of friends or audio club members, and on at least three occasions they sounded excellent.  From my long experience, Wilson speakers are harder to match up well with other components than most other speaker manufacturers.  That's why I no longer make a judgment with Wilson speakers at a show.   For you to say: no one who can actually hear would like them because of the way they sound.  imo, of course!   is irresponsible.  Just because they are not your cup of tea, doesn't mean other people don't prefer the flavor.  And other people can hear as well as you.

i am yust stating my opinion, based on admittedly limited exposure.  to be honest, at the going price for these, i simply have no desire to explore further.  i stand by my opinion, sorry you find it "irresponsible".  what - is someone gonna get hurt from my opinion?  certainly not wilson, they are one of the few audio companies that is like money in the bank.  (how many speakers did they sell at rmaf?  i forget the number, but there was a mention of it somewhere here.)

hey - it is nice to know you found that, after hearing "many Wilson speakers with many different components in homes of friends or audio club members... ...on at least three occasions they sounded excellent..."  at least it is possible to get good sound from them.  i am curious tho - how many did you hear in different homes/etc., that didn't sound excellent?   

doug s.

[KJ]

Jason and I reported what we heard in the Wilson room.  Sorry, but the tweeters were hot on those speakers.  Jason and I both heard it, independently.  You are free to disagree with us, but we were there and you were not.

Actually, I was there, and I will disagree.  However, my opinion on that room and several others that were reported on were different (which is totally fine).  It's audio, and that happens.  Perhaps our ability to hear certain frequencies is different.  Perhaps things changed over the course of the weekend.  Perhaps one of us had one too many cocktails the night before and thought a car horn sounded like a good system the next morning.  Who knows.  There were some rooms with gear I know and appreciate that took all weekend to have corrections put in place before they sounded good.  Some of the people responsible for these rooms I call friends.  Yet, a lot of folks will walk right in and because it's one of their favored brands, they'll claim they were best in show no matter what.

Ultimately, I find it amazing that people feel the need to demean any of the folks who tried to turn a hotel room in one weekend into a good listening experience as if their honor were on the line.  I suppose I could've said that certain rooms "sucked" to me, but out of respect to the hard working folks that make this hobby fun, I'll just chalk it up to not caring for that flavor and move on.

[Tyson]

KJ, that's cool, and I agree with you in part.  On the other hand, getting good sound is their JOB and if they can't do it (and others can), that's on them.

[Pez]

When I walk into a room and it sounds bad, has basically no room treatment, yet costs well into the six figure region I am not surprised in the least. It happens in almost every big budget system every single year. Cost no object speakers, pathetic room treatment. It's like they think they're immune to the effects of poor acoustic spaces. It's the worst kind of hubris I can imagine. Off the top of my head the following six figure manufacturers had little to NO room treatment and their systems sounded bad over the last few years. Focal, Nordost, Dynaudio, Legacy, MBL, German Physics, Wilson, TAD, NOLA, VTL, Naim, Linn, and B&W. All incredibly expensive setups all with inadequate to no room treatment. What does that say to me? It's endemic amongst cost no object manufacturers that they lack attention to detail despite their claims to the contrary.  This is where the mom and pop type manufacturers have it all over the big guys. If these cost no object systems are truly better than middle to low priced gear they sure as hell don't show it at these shows. It's truly pathetic.

Last, this idea that my opinion or any of yours is enough to take down a company is asinine. Wilson or any other big name brand do not give a single shit about what I say, the people who can afford to buy this gear don't give a shit what I have to say, and neither should anyone else for that matter. If you are in the market for a speaker or any other piece of equipment and are basing it off of what is said in a blog you have a lot to learn about life.

[ltr317]

i am yust stating my opinion, based on admittedly limited exposure.  to be honest, at the going price for these, i simply have no desire to explore further.  i stand by my opinion, sorry you find it "irresponsible".  what - is someone gonna get hurt from my opinion?  certainly not wilson, they are one of the few audio companies that is like money in the bank.  (how many speakers did they sell at rmaf?  i forget the number, but there was a mention of it somewhere here.)

hey - it is nice to know you found that, after hearing "many Wilson speakers with many different components in homes of friends or audio club members... ...on at least three occasions they sounded excellent..."  at least it is possible to get good sound from them.  i am curious tho - how many did you hear in different homes/etc., that didn't sound excellent?   

doug s.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion.  But to say "no one who can actually hear would like them because of the way they sound" is absolutely not true and it's irresponsible to assume that anyone who can hear has your tastes.  I don't really care what Wilson thinks about your opinion and if they sell well.  They are generally not my cup of tea either, but I certainly respect the people who own Wilsons and like their sound.  And they can hear as well as you and me. 

I heard Wilsons sound mediocre in quite a few different home systems, certainly the vast majority of times I've listened to them.  Like I said, they are not my cup of tea either.  In the few instances when they sounded excellent, all the complementary pieces were tube components. 

[rbbert]

The Focal room which didn't sound so good had lots of ASC Tube Traps; if you look at pictures maybe you can add them up, but I would guesstimate 8  78" x 13" or 16" columns.  Wilson likewise had at least 4 I could easily see.

[doug s.]

ok, ltr317, you win.  let me correct my statement:

wery few people who can actually hear would like them because of the way they sound.  far better sound can be far more easily achieved for far less money, for most people.  happy now?   

doug s.

[Pez]

The Focal room which didn't sound so good had lots of ASC Tube Traps; if you look at pictures maybe you can add them up, but I would guesstimate 8  78" x 13" or 16" columns.  Wilson likewise had at least 4 I could easily see.

The wilson room had major overhang issues as I stated inadequate treatment there's more to making a room sound good than bass traps. The focal room also was obviously inadequate treatment. Read my notes, bass boominess, midrange bloom, and in my notes "Perhaps with more aggressive room treatment these problems would be overcome. "

[standub]

Here another Best of Show from: http://www.audiophilia.com/wp/?p=8787

Wow our ears have to be completely different, a side from the Wilson's as best of show their next top 3 includes:
German Physiks
mbl
Focal-JMLabs

Other than the insane size of the mbl mono blocks all those rooms where forgettable.

[Pez]

+1
Other than mbl I didn't make it to them this year.

[Quiet Earth]

Well, the show coverage was really fun but this post game blame game kinda sucks. 

[standub]

+1
Other than mbl I didn't make it to them this year.

Lol, wow Pez it really was forgettable for you 
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110562.msg1141598#msg1141598

[Pez]

  Apparently so!

[vinyl_lady]

Laura, you are a breath of fresh air. 

Seriously though, this is the EXACT reason why we think the way we do things is the best. These online audio rags can't be objective by definition.

Jason,

Your's and Tyson's coverage was spectacular! I loved the honest, straight-forward, take-no-prisoners, what-you-hear-is what-you-get appraoch. Just like you and Tyson agreed on some rooms and disagreed on others, I found myself agreeing you on a couple and with Tyson on a couple of others. Far the most part, I found your comments in line with my impressions from the show. As you said more than once, this is a subjective hobby. We have different tastes and no two ears are the same. That is part of what makes this a great hobby.

jhm731,

I'm not sure why you posted and quoted from show reviews that thought the Wilson room was peachy. If it was to demonstrate that not everyone had the same impression of the room that I and several other posters had, I accept that without question. As I said above, this is a subjective hobby and there are different tastes, different likes and dislikes and as Pez & Tyson reported, two audiophiles hearing the same music played on the same system sometimes had completely different impressions. As KJ said, "It's audio and that happens."

Laura

[brj]

I do find it interesting that many people tend attribute the sound of a room predominately to the speakers, with little comment on the rest of the chain (though Tyson and Pez and others rightly harp on the need for room treatments).

I spent part of Saturday specifically looking for DACs and as part of that process, asked several manufacturers to demonstrate different filter settings on their DACs.  The effect was often quite distinct, even in show conditions, and could easily take a system from interesting to dull and back again.  And those distinct effects were produced by "tweaking" a single setting on a single piece of gear.  Walk into the demo at the wrong time, and you'd risk forming an inaccurate impression.

In my opinion, the most a person can defensibly say is that they did, or did not, prefer a given show room at a given point in time with the system in that room considered as a whole, including the presence of room treatments. The number of variables at play is tremendous, and blaming the sound of a show room on any single component is an exercise fraught with peril. And as a reader, I'm going to take those comments at face value. At most, someone else's opinion is merely going to increase or decrease my desire to audition a component in my own system to form my own opinion. Spending time worrying about what other people prefer or being envious of gear I can't afford isn't going to get me any closer to a system I enjoy.

My other suggestion would be for those writing reviews at any level to fully express their own audio preferences so as to give readers a better reference point from which to interpret your comments.  Audio is an phenomenal mix of compromise in the face of physics on the part of designers, and uniquely personal preference fighting against financial and lifestyle constraints on the part of consumers, complicated by component synergy on both fronts.  No wonder the road to audio nirvana is so particularly individualized, yet so universally bumpy!