Minnesota Speaker Cable Test

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Atlplasma

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Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« on: 9 Oct 2012, 04:38 pm »
I search the circles and did not find a discussion of this test. Since Frank was there, I thought he might comment on the test.

Anyone who wants to read the test results can go here: https://sites.google.com/site/audiosocietyofminnesota/Home/april-2012-speaker-cable-listening-test

martyo

Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #1 on: 9 Oct 2012, 04:48 pm »
Thanks 8)

JerryM

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Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #2 on: 9 Oct 2012, 05:15 pm »
Sounds like they were running Frank's new A/B test box. Not that surprising of a result, but it would be nice to see a cable set included that was somewhere between $10.00 and $2,000.00.

It is noted that interconnects are next. I would imagine the results will be remarkably similar. It would be interesting to see the results of a 16/44 vs. 24/96 comparison.  :thumb:

Have fun,

Jerry

Mudslide

Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #3 on: 9 Oct 2012, 05:42 pm »
Thanks for the link.

I found the test results to be interesting, though as the author states, not framed in a rigorous scientific methodology.  Still, it's a worthy experiment.

The author suggests that perhaps indeed, expensive cables are preferred by audiophiles.  Here is his comment:
"Cable A, the zipcord, was not preferred on any of the three comparison tests in which it was included, suggesting that, yes, these cheap and commonly used cables do not sound as good as cables designed for the audiophile market. Based on the results of this informal but honest attempt to address the questions posed earlier, it does appear that in this case at least, there was a preference for the expensive cables and a definite non-preference for the cheap zipcord.  So cables do make a difference."

The author's results ignore the fact that 59% of the listeners preferred the zipcord or had no preference over the supposed "winner", the $8,000 hose-sized cable.  Thus another view of the results...I'm not certain that the results imply that the 41% that preferred the expensive cable (C) over the zipcord (A) represents a "winner".

But it seems it was a fun trial, for sure.  More fuel for the Great Cable Debate.   :D

avahifi

Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #4 on: 9 Oct 2012, 06:51 pm »
Our ABX box was not in use for the Minn Audio Society cable test.  It had not be developed by then.

Maybe next year.  :)

However it would be difficult to have one set of speakers connected to two different sets of speaker cables at the same time.

Frank Van Alstine

R Swerdlow

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Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #5 on: 17 Oct 2012, 12:42 am »
I have several problems with a test like that, ranging from quibbling to major problems.

The 4 different cables were of different gauge.  A was 16 gauge, B was not reported, C was “heavy” gauge, and D was 18 gauge silver instead of copper.

Listeners reported their preferences after to listening to comparisons of various pairs.  One of the stated conclusions of this test was “So cables do make a difference”.  Although an optional answer of No Preference was available on the questionnaire, you cannot conclude that cables do make a difference when the questionnaire asked listeners what their preferences were without asking if listeners could indeed hear a difference.  That’s circular logic.

For any test of the ability of a group of listeners to hear what might be subtle differences in sounds between cables, it is absolutely necessary to also ask just how many listeners could reliably tell the difference between two sounds that are known to be detectably different.  It is unlikely to be 100%.

At the same time, it is also necessary to test how many listeners reported they heard differences when two cables were actually identical.  Again, it is unlikely to be 0%. This was a test of human perception and it is extremely unlikely that people could always get it right.  People who test food preferences or perform wine tasting tests are well aware of these problems with human perception.  Why should audio be any different?

These tests, often called positive and negative controls, should not be considered as trick questions.  They are essential to establish the real sensitivity of this test.  If a negative control test (A vs. A) resulted in numbers such as 30% vs. 70%, 40% vs. 60%, or even 50% vs. 50%, the conclusions you could make of the results with paired tests of different cables would have been completely different.

Finally, I have a problem with statistics.  40 people turned in questionnaires.  That may seem like a big enough number, but with numbers like 30, or 40 or 50 listeners are not large enough to make the conclusions that “Cables do make a difference”.

In medical clinical trials, where human testing and great expense are involved, blind trials of an experimental medicine involving roughly 40 people are often done.  Even with apparently positive results similar to those in the article, you cannot say with any degree of statistical confidence that X% of patients responded positively to the test medication.  Such numbers do allow you to say, YES or NO, that it is worth further testing.  Usually it takes much larger numbers of people, at least 10-fold more people, before you can safely estimate a response percentage.

So I have several objections to claims about audible differences coming from speaker cables:  1) it assumed listeners could hear differences, 2) it failed to provide positive or negative control tests, and 3) it ignored standard statistics.

So my conclusion is that no convincing evidence was presented.

decal

Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #6 on: 17 Oct 2012, 12:57 am »
When will it end? :duh:

JerryM

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Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #7 on: 17 Oct 2012, 01:00 am »
When will it end? :duh:

Hopefully, never.  :lol:

dB Cooper

Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #8 on: 17 Oct 2012, 01:28 am »
Those familiar with AVA surely roll their eyes when they see a cable thread started in their forum.

JerryM

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Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #9 on: 17 Oct 2012, 01:34 am »
We surely do. 

And don't call us Shirley. :wink:

mark funk

Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #10 on: 17 Oct 2012, 09:49 am »





                                                                                                                                    :roll:

                                                                                                                                  :smoke:

Minn Mark

Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #11 on: 17 Oct 2012, 06:25 pm »
I've done my own extensive testing here in SE Minnesota and I can say with some certainty that my AVA components always deliver superior sound (tonal accuracy and authority, lifelike balance and liquidity, presence and sense of space, wide and deep sound stage, etc) when connected by cables. In side-by-side listening tests my group of local audiophyles has been over 84.65% accurate in blind testing (blindfoolded) in identifying systems connected by cables to those not.

Just one man's experiences, for what its worth.

 :oops:

Mark

pstrisik

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Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #12 on: 17 Oct 2012, 10:54 pm »
I've done my own extensive testing here in SE Minnesota and I can say with some certainty that my AVA components always deliver superior sound (tonal accuracy and authority, lifelike balance and liquidity, presence and sense of space, wide and deep sound stage, etc) when connected by cables. In side-by-side listening tests my group of local audiophyles has been over 84.65% accurate in blind testing (blindfoolded) in identifying systems connected by cables to those not.

Just one man's experiences, for what its worth.

 :oops:

Mark

Interesting those that couldn't tell the difference between components connected with cables vs those not!  I've heard of blind testing.  That must have been deaf testing!  (I can say that since I wear hearing aids  :jester:)

..........Peter

charmerci

Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #13 on: 18 Oct 2012, 03:00 am »
Actually, you don't need to have a large number of people to determine if there are sound differences in cables. All you need is more than one person who can detect the differences 100% of the time in double blind tests. Are there these golden ears out there?

dB Cooper

Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #14 on: 19 Oct 2012, 12:47 am »
There was one person from the infamous Stereo Review Monster Cable test who was way above the curve, but he was an anomaly.

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #15 on: 19 Oct 2012, 01:35 am »
Actually, you don't need to have a large number of people to determine if there are sound differences in cables. All you need is more than one person who can detect the differences 100% of the time in double blind tests. Are there these golden ears out there?

You can test cables by objective measurements resistivity, conductance,etc...
 :)

srb

Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #16 on: 19 Oct 2012, 03:28 am »
You can test cables by objective measurements resistivity, conductance,etc...
 :)

Resistance and conductance are measurements of the same property, only inverse or reciprocals of each other.  Perhaps you meant resistance, capacitance and inductance ... ?
 
Steve

G Georgopoulos

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Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #17 on: 19 Oct 2012, 03:41 am »

Resistance and conductance are measurements of the same property, only inverse or reciprocals of each other.  Perhaps you meant resistance, capacitance and inductance ... ?
 
Steve

I wouldn't care about capacitance and inductance...
 :)

avahifi

Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #18 on: 19 Oct 2012, 01:16 pm »
You certainly should care about cable capacitance!

Excess cable capacitance can cause a power amp to severely distort, or in extreme cases even go into full bore oscillations and melt.

This is not opinion, it is fact, and is easy to observe with a scope, load bank, and signal generator.  You certainly can hear the difference when your amp goes up in smoke, as when a Threshold Status amp is connected to speakers with Polk's Cobra cables.

Frank Van Alstine

guest1632

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Re: Minnesota Speaker Cable Test
« Reply #19 on: 13 Nov 2012, 05:39 am »
You certainly should care about cable capacitance!

Excess cable capacitance can cause a power amp to severely distort, or in extreme cases even go into full bore oscillations and melt.

This is not opinion, it is fact, and is easy to observe with a scope, load bank, and signal generator.  You certainly can hear the difference when your amp goes up in smoke, as when a Threshold Status amp is connected to speakers with Polk's Cobra cables.

Frank Van Alstine

Boy does that bring back memmories. I bought a pair of those cables, and they actually worked well with my Mitsubichi power amp. What helped is the big cap between speakers and amp. It saved the amp from going in to major distruct mode. We could actually see arcing coming off the speaker terminals. What a crock.

That Mitsubichi amp was a sleeper at the time. It was just as good as the Son of Ampzilla, which ran hot and was not very stable.

Ray