Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?

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rollo

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #20 on: 10 Oct 2012, 02:52 pm »
   Look at NAD, Rotel and EMU. VG sonics and the right price. TEAC is coming along these days as well. It does NOT have to expensive to sound good. Most of the brands mentioned will be a matter of omission as opposed to poor sonics. Usually the bass or top lacks the extension in direct comparison.



charles

JLM

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #21 on: 10 Oct 2012, 09:17 pm »
State of the art technology (which vendor strut their stuff to and so makes press) typically shows up in the highest priced products (too embarassing to have a mid-priced piece out perform a high end piece from the same vendor) and is more news worthy (fun to review/write about).

jcotner

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #22 on: 11 Oct 2012, 02:25 am »
I've never heard them but Peachtree Audio has two integrated in your price point and a third just outside it. At a much lower price point (sub $550) there's a Teac integrated w/DAC.

Actually I was looking at the Decco65 before I posted but wanted to run the requirements by you folks here
as a sanity check. Unfortunately it's so new I can't seem to find much information on it in a real world setting.
My mixer is a Tascam digital but I'm just not as sold on the Teac gear these days.

One thing I did like about the NuForce is the it being built in Taiwan. Two things I was a little less excited about
is no analog out for a sub and not having 192Khz, which is what my mixer supports.

Doublej

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #23 on: 11 Oct 2012, 02:52 am »
The Marantz integrated amplifiers are made in Japan. I don't know if that's better or worse than made in Taiwan. But they don't have built in USB DACs.

HAL

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #24 on: 11 Oct 2012, 03:04 am »
The Channel Islands Audio gear is very resonably priced.  The big amps are getting up in price, but the preamps and DAC are reasonable to me.

jrtrent

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #25 on: 28 Oct 2012, 02:11 pm »
There's tons of entry level equipment and it's totally easy to find and buy on a million websites that sell it. Does the OP mean why don't we discuss it much here? I think it's because most of the forum regulars aren't much interested in entry level equipment . . .

Adding to the problem is the OP's inclusion of the word "audiophile" in this thread.  In a forum restricted generally to $350 per component and a $1000 maximum system price, there just isn't a lot to talk about that would be related to audiophile sound.  His current cartridge, the Rega Exact, is $600 all by itself.  I was able to bring music, and a wide variety of other audio entertainment, into my home with a Denon DP-300F turntable ($329) and a Bose Wave music system with soundlink adapter ($599; still fitting under the $650 limit for "full-featured" components) and keep within the price constraints, but, enjoyable as it is, that doesn't even qualify as hi-fi sound, let alone audiophile quality.  Even Marantz's least expensive integrated amp and a pair of Bose 301's with stands along with that same Denon turntable would exceed the $1000 limit.

There's an interesting thread started by Letitroll98 on some cheap, possibly high quality options ("Ain't This Hobby Great?), but I'm afraid that building kits and buying product with no chance to audition it first is a little too adventuresome for me.

rollo

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #26 on: 28 Oct 2012, 03:05 pm »
  At RMAF there were two outstanding  complete systems shown with bang for the buck. The Oddesey and Emerald Physics [ $6500 including a DSP unit ] rooms. The new Jolida tubed DAC sounded very good in the Emerald room.


charles

Letitroll98

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #27 on: 28 Oct 2012, 04:45 pm »
There's an interesting thread started by Letitroll98 on some cheap, possibly high quality options ("Ain't This Hobby Great?), but I'm afraid that building kits and buying product with no chance to audition it first is a little too adventuresome for me.

Many of the kit amps offer a built option for only a few dollars more, and most online retailers offer 15 or 30 day trial periods if you'll just pack it up as received and pay the return shipping. 

Inherent with Cheap and Cheerful is a small amount of risk.  One hopes that most of the experiences are more cheerful than not, which has been my experience on the whole, but one has to accept that the $29 DAC you got on eBay may not be what you hoped it would be, or that you might have to track down that 60hz hum in the $175 amp you assembled.  You can do C&C without these risks, but it does limit your options and you might not get the highest fidelity available at the price, witness your example of Denon and Bose.



At RMAF there were two outstanding  complete systems shown with bang for the buck. The Oddesey and Emerald Physics [ $6500 including a DSP unit ] rooms. The new Jolida tubed DAC sounded very good in the Emerald room.


charles

I'm sorry for busting on you here Charles, you've brought so much to AC and the C&C circle, but I have to call you out on this one.  I know the above comment is in the context of mega buck systems at a show, but imagine the shock of telling someone in the real world interested in buying a quality audio system for their home, that their budget should be $6500 for entry level.  Understanding of course that a potential customer may be looking for only one component at a time out of that $6500 whole, it's still way over what I'd be recommending to someone looking for a C&C system. 

I have a friend at work that was looking to add some speakers to his home theater.  His budget was around $100 and he showed me an ad for some box system or another.  I steered him toward a pair of Pioneer SP-BS22-LR's, the ones designed by Andrew Jones that have made such a splash, that he got for $95 on sale at Best Buy.  He couldn't happier, he's hearing three distinct guitars in a mix that was a mass of mixed up sound in his old set, his GF instantly noticed the difference.  Granted most AC'ers, even in the C&C circle, may be looking for a little more, it's pretty close to what we're attempting to achieve on this circle.

Even tho I have to extend apols for calling you out Charles, I also have to thank you for giving me a chance to use you to frame the picture.  The whole idea of the circle is not to settle for less, but to find the nooks and crannies where truly great audio products hide at bargain basement prices.  The Oddyssy amps are great products at reasonable prices, but higher than we allow on C&C.  The mission is to find something that sounds as good as an Oddyssy Khartago at half the price.

   

JLM

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #28 on: 28 Oct 2012, 07:39 pm »
+1   :thumb:

Even stretching the rules here to a $2000 system (where compromises are greatly reduced IMO) can create real sticker shock to first timers.  No wonder to me why the audio industry has been in decline for decades.

Perhaps a household income survey would be enlightening and reveal who ACer's are financially.  My guess is the widening disconnect (in the last 40 years in the U.S.) between the average joe and those affluent enough to start with $8,000 audio systems (the theme of a recent thread on another AC circle) would show up.
« Last Edit: 28 Oct 2012, 09:17 pm by JLM »

rollo

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #29 on: 28 Oct 2012, 10:49 pm »
Many of the kit amps offer a built option for only a few dollars more, and most online retailers offer 15 or 30 day trial periods if you'll just pack it up as received and pay the return shipping. 

Inherent with Cheap and Cheerful is a small amount of risk.  One hopes that most of the experiences are more cheerful than not, which has been my experience on the whole, but one has to accept that the $29 DAC you got on eBay may not be what you hoped it would be, or that you might have to track down that 60hz hum in the $175 amp you assembled.  You can do C&C without these risks, but it does limit your options and you might not get the highest fidelity available at the price, witness your example of Denon and Bose.



I'm sorry for busting on you here Charles, you've brought so much to AC and the C&C circle, but I have to call you out on this one.  I know the above comment is in the context of mega buck systems at a show, but imagine the shock of telling someone in the real world interested in buying a quality audio system for their home, that their budget should be $6500 for entry level.  Understanding of course that a potential customer may be looking for only one component at a time out of that $6500 whole, it's still way over what I'd be recommending to someone looking for a C&C system. 

I have a friend at work that was looking to add some speakers to his home theater.  His budget was around $100 and he showed me an ad for some box system or another.  I steered him toward a pair of Pioneer SP-BS22-LR's, the ones designed by Andrew Jones that have made such a splash, that he got for $95 on sale at Best Buy.  He couldn't happier, he's hearing three distinct guitars in a mix that was a mass of mixed up sound in his old set, his GF instantly noticed the difference.  Granted most AC'ers, even in the C&C circle, may be looking for a little more, it's pretty close to what we're attempting to achieve on this circle.

Even tho I have to extend apols for calling you out Charles, I also have to thank you for giving me a chance to use you to frame the picture.  The whole idea of the circle is not to settle for less, but to find the nooks and crannies where truly great audio products hide at bargain basement prices.  The Oddyssy amps are great products at reasonable prices, but higher than we allow on C&C.  The mission is to find something that sounds as good as an Oddyssy Khartago at half the price.

 


  No problem for me. Live nd learn.  My mistake for not knowing the limitations of system cost in this circle.  Just trying to help. OK then how about Lumience Audio passive preamp ? EMU Amps and preamp. EMU DAC.


charles

michaelhigh

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #30 on: 29 Oct 2012, 02:53 pm »

 There's tons of entry level equipment and it's totally easy to find and buy on a million websites that sell it. Does the OP mean why don't we discuss it much here? I think it's because most of the forum regulars aren't much interested in entry level equipment, but when the questions arise as to what to buy from newer members the said threads usually become flooded with suggestions.

 I actually think it's far more difficult to find sites like this, that provide a real path and framework out of entry level and not just into midfi. There are far more forums that when discussing gear beyond entry level, don't travel much beyond a few midfi brands and don't really discuss what's sota. Don't really get into the truly technical side, don't push the boundaries of what's possible.

 It's also much rarer to find a forum like this with the combined technical knowledge of the regular, veteran posters (I don't include myself yet, despite my post count).

 So.. yeah, I see the problem differently. Plenty of sources of information for entry level, not enough Audiocircles.
I can see the gist of this just by perusing the systems pics here. This is the highest level of esoteric gear I've seen assembled on a website by very knowledgeable owners! There's a great amount of trickledown through the various product lines, from SOTA to entry-level as well. :thumb:

charmerci

Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #31 on: 31 Oct 2012, 05:31 am »
As a guy who is perpetually on a budget with expensive audio tastes, this is how I did it this time. I found an older Denon receiver for $40 bucks. (I don't think anything newer on the Pioneer/Onkyo level is going to give you anything better.) I bought a JDLabs ODAC for $150 to connect to a laptop using JRiver Media and FLAC files. (Thanks to AC members for that recommendation.) Where I put my money was the Dennis Murphy designed Philharmonic Audio .5 Monitor with a ribbon tweeter and a Seas 7" mid-woofer.



On many of the lesser quality files/CD's, there is  still a bit of digital harshness that most on this circle won't like. But basically, even though my system won't make you feel like the performers are in the room, it doesn't really do anything wrong on good recordings.

I used to own a pair of inexpensive B&W DM302's that frankly would not be the weakness in a system under several thousand dollars though obviously without the lowest of bass. I used to buy used AVA (Audio by Van Alstine) equipment but now even his newer used components are above the C&C price limits.

JLM

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #32 on: 1 Nov 2012, 10:53 pm »
OK I apologize in advance, but I'm gonna rant about high audio prices...

We each have an audio spending comfort level, but just read an Absolute Sound review of the TAD CR1 (large standmounts, $37,000/pair MSRP).  Reviewer Alan Sircom ends by saying, "A few years ago, audio freed itself from the shackles of having to work within the limitations of price."

What planet is he from?  Did he and all his friends just win the megalottery?  C'mon man.

django11

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #33 on: 1 Nov 2012, 11:22 pm »


On many of the lesser quality files/CD's, there is  still a bit of digital harshness that most on this circle won't like. But basically, even though my system won't make you feel like the performers are in the room, it doesn't really do anything wrong on good recordings.


I just treated my room and the number of cd's that sound harsh has dwindled dramatically.  I can't get over the difference and regret not having done this sooner .

My treatments were cheap as heck too  :thumb:...


ejfud

Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #34 on: 2 Nov 2012, 12:10 am »
I just treated my room and the number of cd's that sound harsh has dwindled dramatically.  I can't get over the difference and regret not having done this sooner .

My treatments were cheap as heck too  :thumb:...

Let's see some picture! I really think I need to do this in my small room, but have no clue where to start.

charmerci

Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #35 on: 2 Nov 2012, 12:49 am »
Let's see some picture! I really think I need to do this in my small room, but have no clue where to start.

He did this - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110572.0

jarcher

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #36 on: 2 Nov 2012, 02:45 am »
Where I put my money was the Dennis Murphy designed Philharmonic Audio .5 Monitor with a ribbon tweeter and a Seas 7" mid-woofer.

Think the system you put together makes a lot of sense.  I still don't see why it isn't possible to have a decent system for $1K or under, especially buying used.  E.g a $200 pc / laptop / netbook + $200 DAC for digital, $200 for an amp, $200 for speakers, $200 for some bulk speaker wire and some entry level interconnects & digital cable.  Tough, but not impossible, especially as you could do volume control from the PC or even some DACs, negating the need for an integrated amp or preamp.  Substitute the $400 in digital for $400 for used turntable + cartridge and maybe entry level phono preamp if you want to do vinyl instead. 

Maybe it would be good to have a thread of recommended sub $1K systems in the C&C circle with specific components listed to get more specific and serve as a resource to newbies?

Just out of curiosity, what's Murphy asking for those .5 monitors?

django11

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #37 on: 2 Nov 2012, 03:01 am »
He did this - http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=110572.0

I have done a bit more since then.  I'll try and post tomorrow...

WC

Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #38 on: 2 Nov 2012, 03:07 am »
As a guy who is perpetually on a budget with expensive audio tastes, this is how I did it this time. I found an older Denon receiver for $40 bucks. (I don't think anything newer on the Pioneer/Onkyo level is going to give you anything better.) I bought a JDLabs ODAC for $150 to connect to a laptop using JRiver Media and FLAC files. (Thanks to AC members for that recommendation.) Where I put my money was the Dennis Murphy designed Philharmonic Audio .5 Monitor with a ribbon tweeter and a Seas 7" mid-woofer.

I think I have one of those old Denon recievers. Worth more than $40 bucks to me, even if it is not really doing anything at the moment.  :)

Letitroll98

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Re: Lots of hi-end stuff, but what about entry level stuff ?
« Reply #39 on: 2 Nov 2012, 03:17 am »
Maybe it would be good to have a thread of recommended sub $1K systems in the C&C circle with specific components listed to get more specific and serve as a resource to newbies?


There may be a lot of contention over the subject, but if you (or someone) posts it, I'll sticky it.  To avoid the bickering over this or that component, I think you'd have to set some guidelines like only for the posting of systems, if you want to discuss the merits of any system, you'd have to copy and paste it into a new thread.  And only complete systems that play music, no DAC and a computer a gee you must have the rest, with the real prices paid listed.  I guess I could think of a couple more suggestions, but maybe I should leave something for someone else.

Just out of curiosity, what's Murphy asking for those .5 monitors?

Yes, please, if you're willing to reveal.  I tried to find a price on the website and couldn't find more than a picture.