[kudoosamod]

Hi. I have building up to the perfect analogue system over the past 2 years. I started with the Mitchell Orbe and Koetsu Urushi and Helius Omega tonearm with Halcro DM10 PHONO-PREAMPLIFIER . Sound was analytical, not musical. I have now the following system :-
SME 20/3A with the Urushi and Sutherland phonoblocks and the sound is now more natural but find it a bit laid-back. The rest of my system is KRELL 750MCX Monoblocks, KRELL 222 PREAMP and Andra 2 speakers. I am looking for that dynamic sound. Will an upgrade to higher SME work or will VPI HRX OR SOTA MILLENIUM work ?

[orthobiz]

IIRC, Laura has an SME and she may chime in here...

Paul

[neobop]

By "dynamic sound" you mean more live sounding, less laid back? Sometimes it's a case of finding the right cables or removing the silicone from the arm damping.  Some people think the SME V is dull, kind of dead.  If you want to change table again, I don't think a Sota or VPI is going to do it for you.  Perhaps a Teres or Trans Fi if you think it lacks PRAT.  Maybe a diff cart?  I'm more familiar with a Rosewood (sig) and it seems to rise quite way above the overly lush Black.  The Urushi should be better and with .6mV out, I'd think it would be dynamic.  Maybe a set of Kimber silver cables, or something live sounding between the Southerland and Krell, would fix?  If not, try another arm.  Maybe the Ortofon Anna or a VDH Colibri would do it.  I think it's the arm.
neo

[kudoosamod]

Thank you Neobop.

The cables in use are Silver audio cables between the Sutherland and the Krell. The speaker cable is Audioquest K2.Do u suggest changing the cable or the tonearm ?

[BobM]

Just a suggestion, but why don;t you write to Fremer over at his Analogue Planet site. I'm sure he will have a few suggestions for you. The SME is a great table, so I would look at some other solutions before you go dumping it (but if you do, give me a shout  ).

[ncblue]

Rega P9 with the Urushi. Very dynamic and alive, simple and fun to use. It does not sound lightweight as some will tell you. I'm running the combo with the Sky Blue and it rocks!

[rollo]

  It may not be the table. It may be the cart. Koetsu has a warm and rich character. Dynavector comes to mind as well as ZYX and Clearaudio.
     Have you tried adjusting the VTA with the Koetsu ? What about azimuth and tracking force. Each will affect the character of the final sound. Especially azimuth. Recheck if possible all and report back. BTW check out a Fozgometer.



charles

[roscoeiii]

  It may not be the table. It may be the cart. Koetsu has a warm and rich character. Dynavector comes to mind as well as ZYX and Clearaudio.
     Have you tried adjusting the VTA with the Koetsu ? What about azimuth and tracking force. Each will affect the character of the final sound. Especially azimuth. Recheck if possible all and report back. BTW check out a Fozgometer.



charles

I had the same thought. Dyna and ZYX both have reputations for being more dynamic. I have loved carts from both on my TTs, and I am a big dynamics nut too.

[toocool4]

I would say try a different Phono Stage first.

[SteveRB]

I am looking for that dynamic sound.

The most dynamic sounding analog sources I have had the pleasure of hearing are consistently from well built idler-wheel turntables (Lenco, Garrard). The sound is so fast and immediate -- it is totally different then a belt drive. It take a fair amount of work to keep one of these tables running well, and they may not be the most transparent source. But the benefits of the sound are intoxicating and quite memorable.

Please see this link for a good (and opinionated) discussion on the sound qualities.

http://home.earthlink.net/~transcrubbers/id9.html

"My theory is that, in the hype-driven rush to ‘signal-to-noise’ supremacy, belt-drive technology suspended and isolated each element in the transport at such a remove that it may have just pulled the rug out from under itself.  When motors and platters ( read : engine and load ) are separated with indiscriminate respect to speed stability, then the credibility of the transport system is at risk.  Yes, with beltdrive, there is a deathly black silence between consequently monumental and percussive sonic events, but….

If there already exists the least divergence from ironclad speed control, any advance on the signal-to-noise front is a chimera.  Time, and Time above all, is the central and non-negotiable responsibility of the transport.  Failing that, other “hi-fi” considerations are, well, lipstick on a pig."

[neobop]

Just a suggestion, but why don;t you write to Fremer over at his Analogue Planet site. I'm sure he will have a few suggestions for you. The SME is a great table, so I would look at some other solutions before you go dumping it (but if you do, give me a shout  ).

Not a bad idea.  I would also start a thread on Audiogon.  You're likely to find some people with experience with your combinations.

It's a complex problem that involves the entire system.  For instance, Krell doesn't have the "live" sound of ARC equipment, but I can't say that's the problem.  The first combo was analytical, but was it dynamic enough?  Audioquest interconnects tend to be laid back.  I don't know about that spk wire.  Is it designed to give depth/distance like MIT? 

"Rega P9 with the Urushi. Very dynamic and alive, simple and fun to use. It does not sound lightweight as some will tell you." 

Is there any way you could try stuff before you commit?  I still think the problem is with the arm/cart, most likely the arm or the combination.  I've heard that arm sound deader than a doornail, especially on a vacuum Sota.  I've also heard it sound excellent in the right combination.  By all means check with others.  My answer is definitely the arm/cart, maybe.   
neo

Edit - I also think that DD or idlers will give better PRAT, that's why I suggested Teres (DD)  or Trans Fi (rim drive).  These are current models and you'll have near perfect speed accuracy and enough torque to maintain it.  Personally, I wouldn't buy another belt drive even though the better ones seem to overcome most of the limitations. 

[vinyl_guy]

I have an SME 20/2 with an SME IV.Vi arm and a Lyra Skala cartridge. My phono cable is a Cardas Golden Reference played through an Alana vacuum tube preamp with an Art Audio vacuum tube Vinyl Reference phono stage. The sound is very dynamic and "live," not laid back and certainly not analytical. I don't think changing your table or tonearm is the answer. IMO you would have to spend uber amounts of money to improve on the SME 20/3 and V combination (neither the VPI nor the Sota would come close to the SME IMO), so I would look at your phono stage, phono cable and cartridge. In addition to the Alana/Art Aduio combination, I would check out the Zesto phono stage. I heard it at RMAF last year and it sounded great. It has received some very good reviews. The suggestion to to email Michael Fremer is a good one. Jeff Dorgay at Tone Audio may have some ideas too.

Laura

[woodsyi]

Different table/arm but I have the same cart on one TT.  I would recommend Soundsmith Strain Gauge if you want more dynamic.  That's the set up I go to for big symphonic music and Koetsu for more intimate music and vocals.

[TomS]

I've never had the pleasure to hear an SME table, but it is surely at the top of the heap. You'll get lots of excellent suggestions from owners here and on a'gon that may address your concerns without major changes.

I do own the Trans-Fi Salvation/T3Pro, which is rim drive, into a Zesto Andros PS1 phono stage. After several belt drives (VPI, Sota, Rega) over the years, I can say the dynamics and bass of this rim drive table are a couple of its strengths. Several Salvation owners are coming out of very high end tables, including restored idlers and other rim drives such as Teres and VPI, so it can definitely hold its own in that company.

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

.... the sound is now more natural but find it a bit laid-back. The rest of my system is KRELL 750MCX Monoblocks, KRELL 222 PREAMP and Andra 2 speakers. I am looking for that dynamic sound. Will an upgrade to higher SME work or will VPI HRX OR SOTA MILLENIUM work ?

Instead of blind guessing like blinds leading the blinds, please qualify what you mean by "that dynamic sound". Sonic is so personally subjective.

Does it mean the music should come forth to you fast, punchy, snappy, & forceful which your current system lacks? Sonically, "dull" sounding, IME, can be unbalanced sound spectrum, too much low & relatively too shy the HF end.

Mind you, a cartridge can sound pretty dull on mismatching its phono-amp!

All these details will lead us to give you a more reliable suggestion. Otherwise, it'll be like opening up a hugh can of worms - a costly merry-go-around

c-J

PS: As a DIYer, I can make any phono cartridge sound dynamic like a superman withOUT need changing any existing components, depending on situations.

[cheap-Jack]

Hi.

The most dynamic sounding analog sources I have had the pleasure of hearing are consistently from well built idler-wheel turntables (Lenco, Garrard). The sound is so fast and immediate -- it is totally different then a belt drive.

Yes, an audiophile friend told me the same thing. He settles on idler-wheel driven TT as he prefers the fast & immediate attacks on piano notes that he found no belt-driven TT can match.

But does it mean "dynamic sounding" to the orginal poster is another thing.

c-J

[Minn Mark]

SME, SOTA, VPI, Lenco, Garrard. You guys are discussing some great set-ups.  I'm using a VPI Classic I with Sumiko Blackbird into Van Alstine SS electronics and finally Maggie 3.6R.  I also have a Sota Comet with Ortofon 2M Red into same. I have always used a record clamp, (the VPI, or Sota Reflex, respectively) but I'm aware of various attitudes toward clamping (also use of vacuum) as well as the mat vs. no mat topic. I'd appreciate comments or opinions here as to these and how they contribute or take away from a 'dynamic' presentation. Suspended vs. non-suspended? Always looking for good advice, so thanks in advance.

Mark

[neobop]

You have the wrong combo for what you're looking for.

http://www.stereophile.com/phonocartridges/1098koetsu/index.html

Order of importance of record player parts - table, arm, cart,  in that order.  A cart that's lush, liquid, can sound big, but usually not fast, lean and live.  The cart seems to be the constant here.  If you want to stick with it, I think you need a new set-up.  Teres only makes direct drive tables, they start around $4K.  I think the Trans Fi is 2K pounds.  These prices are w/o arms.  There's an idler called Saskia. It weighs 200 lbs and costs around $35K.  The same place sells an 80 lb Lenco.  Probably costs less.

http://www.oswaldsmillaudio.com/Products/turntables.html

A faster sounding table will definitely help, and/or, you might want to consider a different cart.  The SME is an excellent table.  Ultimately, I don't know if you'd be happier with it, or a DD/idler, although I suspect it would be a DD/idler.  Maybe you could put another cart on there and find happiness.
neo

[hondo]

I feel your pain.  I to was looking for increased dynamics, and also density and detail.  After a lot of work with my turntables, I migrated to idler turntables.  I currently am using a modified Lenco L75 and a modified Garrard 301.  Both are in DIY slate plinths with Schick tonearms.  I will be building two more turntables, a Lenco L75 and Garrard 301 in slate plinths.

[TONEPUB]

One thing I've seen with SME tables a LOT, is people getting too carried away with the damping fluid in the damping trough.  SME's are often characterized as dull and woody, but that just means it isn't set up properly. 

Don't know how much goo is in your damping trough, but if you have a relatively stable platform to put your SME table on, chances are high you can get away with NO silicone fluid.  I'd suggest starting there.  It's cheap and easy to try. 

Hope that helps!

The Koetsu is a little on the warm side, but once you get it dialed, should still be fairly dynamic.