[G Georgopoulos]

Hi say you have two headphones both have a frequency response 20 - 20khz,and the price is different,one costs $50 and the other $300,now which one do you prefer,do you base your preference on the frequence responce or on subjectivism,you may like the cheap headphones,to be short why prefer the expensive one based on hearing and not look at the same specification of both,I want to hear your views.

kind regards
George

[Noseyears]

Specs are important when you are buying gear. But sometimes measurements are inadequate to characterize the performance of a headphone. That's why i buy based on what i hear, what i like. (subjective way)

[JohnR]

Well, there's a lot more to an "objective" assessment than just frequency response. That said, I am wary of buying headphones without hearing them first. Whether it's published measurements or reviews or online opinions, there's no substitute for hearing it yourself.

[dB Cooper]

Most published headphone specs, regardless of the manufacturer, are useless. Saying two pairs of cans have 20-20KHz response (for example) means nothing if one is +/-3dB and the other is 15dB down at 20Hz. Similarly, an "0.2%" distortion rating (for example) is useless as a tool for comparison if the test conditions (frequency and sound pressure level in this case) are not specified and they practically never are.

As far as the $50 vs $300 headphone comparison goes, while there are some cheap cans that "punch above their weight", most upscale headphones have obvious benefits in fit, finish, and construction. These will generally pay off in durability and longevity. There are exceptions here too though, like the expensive but poorly made, crappy sounding Dre headphones.

[G Georgopoulos]

Well, there's a lot more to an "objective" assessment than just frequency response.

typical specifications of headphones on the package are:

power
impedance
sensitivity
frequency
plug
length of cable

if there are others please let us know


thanks for your inputs

cheers

[JohnR]

if there are others please let us know

Hello George, here is a very good resource about headphone measurement:

http://www.innerfidelity.com/category/audio-science-guide

[Noseyears]

I agree with your points guys. However, i read an article stating that "Ears cannot be trusted".
take a look and discuss:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/evaluation.html

[JohnR]

You're taking the heading of one section out of context. Further down, Zaph says:

During the driver evaluation process, any sort of subjectivity is a bad idea. But on the other hand, subjectivity during the system evaluation process is going to be required. At some point, a designer has to decide on tradeoffs. That could mean deciding what types of distortion are more annoying to the designer personally. For example, what sounds worse: a broad, large increase in even order harmonic distortion in the lower midrange and bass or sharper but narrow band odd order harmonic distortion in the upper treble? Sound familiar? It's the old metal vs paper cone debate and it comes down to personal preference. The choice is a subjective one. Some prefer metal cones while many others prefer paper or poly. That's OK. Measurements can tell the truth about a driver but remember that they can't tell you what you like.

You can see similar thoughts in a couple of articles in the link I posted above.

[dB Cooper]

typical specifications of headphones on the package are:

power 
impedance (the frequency at which the spec was derived is rarely mentioned; like speakers, many headphones have significant variations)
sensitivity (I often see a spec like "96dB". But for what input level and frequency?? Uncommon to see this info furnished)
frequency (Usually specified but, to repeat myself, within what tolerances rarely is mentioned, rendering the "spec" meaningless)
plug (Tells you nothing about the sound)
length of cable (Ditto)

if there are others please let us know


thanks for your inputs

cheers

[G Georgopoulos]

The same (specifications specifics omited) could be done on any component, why single out headphones?

cheers

[Elizabeth]

Seems it would be important if you could not actually just listen to them both.
(Usually i would then rely on other's opinions of the sound, if i could not listen for myself before buying headphones)
But, since listening to a product and deciding which sounds best to oneself is the 'golden rule' of audiophiles.. The specs have little meaning, compared to the powerful knowledge of how the actually sound to one's self.
I would go so far as to say a person who bought headphones based soley on specs, even though to them the other one sounded better, is a total fool. (though if price played a big part, i would temper my comment with well, if it is all you can afford...) 

Added: and 'specs' are  so easily faked, twisted to mean whatever anyway, Specs really have little real value.

[dB Cooper]

Added: and 'specs' are  so easily faked, twisted to mean whatever anyway, Specs really have little real value.

That last was kind of my point- one way of twisting them to mean whatever you want is to not specify the test conditions. Need to be able to say your $25 headphones go to 20Hz? Just don't mention that they are 20dB down and have high distortion. need to say they have very low distortion when they don't? Test them at a low SPL. Specifications (especially for any kind of transducer) should always be taken with a grain of salt, but doubly so when the specification is not specific.

George, one reason I singled out headphones is because your OP did. Another is that I have been shopping for headphones, and looking at amps, and trying to compare specs (although specs are only a general guideline at best) and have found that most specs for headphones and related electronics are especially vague compared to other products- and there is no standardization on methodology in any event, making comparisons impossible.

[dwk]

This definitely has the feel of a troll thread, but......

Headphones are somewhat unique in that they interact very closely with the geometry of the ear - the outer ear in the case of conventional phones, and the ear canal in all cases.  So, the same headphone will actually perform objectively differently for different listeners. Even better, it's virtually impossible to actually measure these variations and hence predict much about how any specific headphone will interact with your ear.

Furthermore, with headphones you have very limited tools available to adjust the performance to get closer to your subjective preference. With speakers you can play with placement, toe-in, room treatments etc to adjust the response. You really don't have analogous techniques available with headphones.

So, the upshot is that you're left in a position where you basically just have to listen and pick the one you like.

[dB Cooper]

What dwk said, including the first sentence.

About the only available sound tweaks are EQ (I often roll the highs slightly on my Senn 555's) and crossfeed (which also seems to reduce HF energy a bit).

dwk's point about the ear is well taken. A driver 1/2" from the ear seems to interact differently with the ear than one 15 ft away. For the same reason, a "flat" headphone will sound "bright" on recordings mixed for speakers, making the mfr make judgments about how much to deviate from "flat" to make it sound flat. This requires even more subjective decisions to be made.

[galyons]

I agree with your points guys. However, i read an article stating that "Ears cannot be trusted".
take a look and discuss:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/evaluation.html

Not a problem, especially with 'phones!!  The only ears that I have to please are my own!

Cheers,
Geary

[saisunil]

Specs do not tell anything about tonality, sound-staging etc.
I read/heard that we all have preferences for certain frequencies for pleasurable in ear sound ... that guy implemented some sort of eq for custom hearing aids based on persons listening / freq preferences ... far out but great idea ...

there you have it

[eclein]

I read this thread and realized I have never purchased anything based on specs. Its probably not a good thing but honestly I don't really always understand them or think I would be able to ascertain the audible difference between products based on specs. I have no idea going into a purchase if the piece has good or bad specs. I look at design/aesthetics, build, price then sound(opinions on the sound that is).

 If a piece looks crappy in my opinion I'll pass on it until I read or hear it as "must have" then I'll investigate further. If I happen to hear something first and love it then the rest is mute....LOL.

 I love the look of stuff like Apple designs but rarely can afford it, I really want a Ferrari but only can realistically buy a Toyota kind of thing....if I see an awesome looking item I definately check into it and I mean immediately...LOL....does anyone else buy stuff like I do or am I alone in this thought process??

 

[dB Cooper]

Specs do not tell anything about tonality, sound-staging etc.
I read/heard that we all have preferences for certain frequencies for pleasurable in ear sound ... that guy implemented some sort of eq for custom hearing aids based on persons listening / freq preferences ... far out but great idea ...

there you have it

Specs do tell a story (not the whole story) but have to be thorough to be useful.
For example, you could have 2 headphones, one of which has a 3dB hump at 200 Hz, and one that has a 3dB spike at 5KHz, otherwise ruler flat. Both could be spec'd at "20-20 KHz +/- 1.5 db"- and they will sound completely different, the first likely to sound "warm" and the second, "bright".

BTW, I instinctively distrust "20-20 KHz" anytime I see it. Speaking of "ruler-flat",  I remember seeing the "frequency response" for the Bose 901 and someone had simply taken a ruler and drawn a perfectly straight line on a graph. Not even a ripple. NO real world equipment or test setup produces results like that. Whenever you see "20-20K" you can be pretty sure somebody just pulled that out of a hat because they know that's what spec sheet nerds expect to see.

[adydula]

dwk is on to something,,,,

There is a lot of interaction going on with headphones that are not seen on specs...and I am a spec person for sure.

But specs do tell you important things about cans.

I am assuming a freq plot is a display of specs.

Look at the curves for a pair of Audeze LCD2's compared to say a AKG Q701:



What do u see in the graph that really stands out?

Things specs dont seem to tell me are how the tonality will be, the soundstage, imaging etc.....

If you listen to a wide range of cans, and look at the curves you can begin to see things that have an impact on how
cans will sound in certain areas of the audible frequency spectrum..

Is this important to you?


Some specs can be seen to help understand what cans might be able to do even without listening to them
if the data is accurate.

The other specs IMO that are very important is the impedance curve, and the sensitivity rating that
help tell me if my amp will be able to drive the cans to their full capability etc..

But with cans...you really need to listen to them on your head with your stuff....

Alex

[dB Cooper]

HeadRoom is one of the best resources, as they use the same methodology to test everything, therefore you can make inferences between Can A and Can B, rather than comparing specs between two different mfrs using two different test setups. Reward them with your business. They sell Hifiman and Grado cans, for example, for the same price as Amazon.

One thing I look at in the headphone graphs is the 500 Hz square wave plots, a good indicator of transient performance. The results don't always track with price.