[medium jim]

What is Tubey?   Sure, it is the bloated sound from a cheap desk top Tube Radio made of inferior parts, but there is no such sound in well built Tube Amp's or Pre's.   

Do they mean that it has a large and 3D (liquid) Soundstage, or that the highs are not lean, rather refined and pleasing?

Sorry, but it is the most wrongly used word in the Audiophilium that I know of.

Thanks,
Jim

[brooklyn]

Paragraph below taken from Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound

Audible differences

The sound of a tube amplifier is partly a function of the circuit topologies typically used with tubes versus the topologies typically used with transistors, as much as the gain devices themselves. Beyond circuit design, there are other differences such as the electronic characteristics of a triode and MOSFET, or a tetrode and a bipolar transistor.

Some sonic qualities are easy to explain objectively based on an analysis of the distortion characteristics of the gain device and/or the circuit topology.[citation needed] For example, the triode SE gain stage produces a stereotypical monotonically decaying harmonic distortion spectrum that is dominated by significant second-order harmonics making the sound seem "rich" or even "fat", while each higher order harmonic is smaller than the nearest lower order harmonic.[5] Some audio professionals[who?] regard the effects of the use of tubes as distortion - which can be used creatively in certain scenarios.

The low frequency roll-off can be explained by many tube amplifiers having high output impedance compared to transistor designs, due to the combination of both higher device impedance itself and typically reduced feedback margins (more feedback results in a lower output impedance).

A hypothetical amplifier design in two otherwise equal variants with just different amounts of feedback, might result in the higher feedback version having a "drier" mid-range (due to reduced second-order harmonics due to greater reduction of distortion) but a "tighter" bass due to lower output impedance might result.[citation needed] The speaker impedance divided by the Z out is sometimes referred to as the "damping factor"—the amplifier's ability to control the mechanical movement of the speaker.

In general terms, the sound from a tube amplifier will typically have a softer attack[citation needed] and the bass frequencies will be more prominent, giving a warmer and less "harsh" sound.[citation needed] Instruments such as pianos and vocals sound softer and fatter when compared against transistor amplifiers. The reasons for these effects are not simply related to the gain device type; today an amplifier designer using either technology may make synergistic design compromise choices. Sonic differences are less stereotyped than they used to be as a result.

[edit]

[medium jim]

Brooklyn:

As a point of clarification, the word "Tubey", is used negatively. Nothing in the wiki passage you cited is negative with respect to tubes.  In the same, do you ever hear someone say, that sounds silicon or transistor?


Jim

[Tyson]

I take "Tubey" as a compliment.  Cause tubes sound good.

[SteveFord]

I've said a certain piece has that solid state or transistor sound as a way of saying harsh, brittle or grainy.
I own three SS amps and 1 SS preamp at the moment so that doesn't mean I don't like solid state gear, I just don't care for that particular piece of SS gear that sounds harsh and grainy.
There's both good sounding and bad sounding tube and SS components.
The best sounding ones, to my ears, have tubes.

[Phil A]

I've said a certain piece has that solid state or transistor sound as a way of saying harsh, brittle or grainy.
I own three SS amps and 1 SS preamp at the moment so that doesn't mean I don't like solid state gear, I just don't care for that particular piece of SS gear that sounds harsh and grainy.
There's both good sounding and bad sounding tube and SS components.
The best sounding ones, to my ears, have tubes.

I concur that there are both good and bad sounding designs from either technology.  Here's an interesting short read on the subject from a couple of years back - http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20026525-47.html

[medium jim]

There was never a question about SS vs Tubes raised by me with my post. My peeve is the incorrect use of the word tubey, usually in a negative connotation.  In effect, it has become a generic term used by many Sandheads. 

Maybe I need to be more tolerant like Tyson!

Jim

[Phil A]

I've used the term when I have heard things that I felt were stereotypical tube sound (and there's nothing wrong with liking that) but not quite neutral.  I've also used the term solid state sounding when I've heard things that were a bit cold and had brittle/shrill sounding highs.  I don't like or dislike either just based on the technology.  I have a tube preamp in the main system and have owned tubed source components and a tubed amp (an old ST-70) at one point.

[SteveFord]

Correction: if you count integrateds, I have 5 SS amps and 1 SS preamp.

I think "tubey" is a synonym for syrupy.  If you listen to an old Grundig tabletop radio, that is what I think of when you hear the word "tubey".
The two technologies move closer together sonically every year. 

[medium jim]

Correction: if you count integrateds, I have 5 SS amps and 1 SS preamp.

I think "tubey" is a synonym for syrupy.  If you listen to an old Grundig tabletop radio, that is what I think of when you hear the word "tubey".
The two technologies move closer together sonically every year.

Steve:

I agree about the grundig.  I agree that SS has gotten better over the years and have come closer to what a good tube amp sounds like (from any era).  I chuckle when SS amp builders comment on how their amp sounds like tubes.

Jim

[Devil Doc]

...or how about," It's a tube amp that doesn't sound like tubes and that's a compliment." That one seems to get used a lot lately.

Doc

[OzarkTom]

IMO, it is the output transformer that causes the bloated tubey sound as they call it. Mac ss amps with output transformers have that same sound while OTL tube amps do not.

[Freo-1]

Well, how about the First Watt M2:
 
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt11/m2.html
 
Does it sound like tubes, solid state, or music? 

[Quiet Earth]

Sounds like transistors because it is.

[Quiet Earth]

Legitimate peeve jim. Don't let it bug you man.

I cringe a little bit when people say it sounds accurate or neutral.  Or worse yet ,,,   compared to my reference. I get the gist of the description though, so I'm grateful for the information.

[richidoo]

"Warm" sound comes from tube's own harmonic distortion, mostly 3rd order for PP amps and 2nd order for SE amps.

"Syrupy" comes from cheap output transformers that have high magnetic hysteresis. This is the slop added to the signal due to the inertia of the magnetic field in the low quality iron core of the transformer. Higher permeability magnetic materials like nickel reduce this effect, but are expensive, the best materials like parmendur are extremely expensive. A little hysteresis is nice, as found in tape recordings and magnetic cartridges. It makes the "analog sound."

Other aspects of an inadequate output transformer are rolled off highs, lows, loose (warm) bass, dynamic compression, non linear noise, overheating, etc. It takes a large, high-nickel iron core and thick, low resistance copper windings to make a clean sounding, full range, dynamic, transformer that runs relatively cool. Expensive tube amps have the budget for great iron and can deliver the good tubeys without the bad. Good and bad being my own personal preferences, shared with most other audiophiles I know. But of course people buy those cheap Chinese amps with tiny transformers and rave reviews by the bushel.

[Freo-1]

Sounds like transistors because it is.

Did you read the review?  It does not sound quite like solid state, due to the transformer gain stage. 
I know, I've heard it.

[medium jim]

QE:

I suppose...

Jim

[Quiet Earth]

Did you read the review?  It does not sound quite like solid state, due to the transformer gain stage.

I will read it and I'm sure it's everything you hope it to be. I have never heard a Pass product that I liked though. Maybe the phono stage, not too bad.

[Freo-1]

I will read it and I'm sure it's everything you hope it to be. I have never heard a Pass product that I liked though. Maybe the phono stage, not too bad.

Well, personal taste always gets into these debates.  There are a lot of tube amps that I think sound slow and plodding, while a few truly excel.
 
I can tell you that the M2 sounds different than any other Pass product I have heard, and it's a big hit in the Asian market, where tubes still seem to rule the day.
 
FWIW, my buddy who makes custom tube amps (and generally does not like solid state), was pretty impressed with the Threshold SA/3.