[Mister Pig]

Well it is time to consider what should be the permanent cartridge for this turntable. At the moment I have a Digitrac NE 200 installed on it, just to get it up and going. The sound is not bad at all from this Ortofon built cartridge, my understanding is that it is the equivalent of an OM20. But it still is a budget cartridge at best.

In many ways I would be interested in putting a moving coil on the table, but as I understand there are potential issues. This table is a MK 1, which means it has an iron drive platter, which I understand can create attraction issues to the magnets in a MC cartridge. Yet I have read of other accounts where owners have successfully ran MC cartridges on this table, so it does not seem to be a universal-ism. But certainly a risk.

The ADC tone arm is  a 9 gram arm, so there are only a couple of MC cartridges that would work. As far as I know the Denon DL 304 or the AT 33EV(or the Japanese version..whatever its designation is) would be candidates. Later down the road I may do a different arm, but that is what is there now.

The other option is a different MM cartridge. One thing I noticed about the Digitrac cartridge is that it does macro dynamics very well, more powerful sounding than the MC in certain ways. I do have a few MM bodies here that need styli, but I wonder if they are worth pursuing. Signet TK5EA, Signet Signet AM30, Ortofon OM 30, and AT 155LC, are the suspects, and I think the 155LC would make the most sense to invest in. But the question I ask myself, should I just sell the bodies off and forgo spending money on styli, and instead buy one good MM. The problem is that I am not well versed in this niche, I understand that the Ortofon 2M Black is well received, I would like to have gotten my hands on one of the acrylic bodied Soundsmith cartridges, of course there are the Clearaudios...although those have been insinuated to be a rebadged AT, the wood bodied Grado's, and that seems to be the major players I am aware of.

This isn't anything I am in a hurry to resolve. Just my current audio project that is a nice little diversion. This is my secondary table, and it has been a fun process of discovery.

I guess one of the main questions I got, is there a way to shield the iron platter from a MC cartridge? Second one is what would be viable MM options that would be competitive with a middle of the pack MC?





Regards
Mister Pig

[orthobiz]

I don't know the answer but I sure would like to see a few more pics of that beauty!

I also see that Stereophile has e-mail addresses for the various columnists. I'll bet Art Dudley would answer your question!

Paul

[Mister Pig]

I don't know the answer but I sure would like to see a few more pics of that beauty!

I also see that Stereophile has e-mail addresses for the various columnists. I'll bet Art Dudley would answer your question!

Paul

Be a week or so till I can snap any more pics. It is just a stock machine that I refinished the base on and cut and stained a new arm board for. Went through and cleaned and lubed it up, it did not have much use, just a bit of neglect. Found it in a friends garage sitting on the shelf.

Here is a pic of my main table, this is where most of my audio money has been invested.








Regards
Mister Pig

[neobop]

Well it is time to consider what should be the permanent cartridge for this turntable. At the moment I have a Digitrac NE 200 installed on it, just to get it up and going. The sound is not bad at all from this Ortofon built cartridge, my understanding is that it is the equivalent of an OM20. But it still is a budget cartridge at best.

In many ways I would be interested in putting a moving coil on the table, but as I understand there are potential issues. This table is a MK 1, which means it has an iron drive platter, which I understand can create attraction issues to the magnets in a MC cartridge. Yet I have read of other accounts where owners have successfully ran MC cartridges on this table, so it does not seem to be a universal-ism. But certainly a risk.

The ADC tone arm is  a 9 gram arm, so there are only a couple of MC cartridges that would work. As far as I know the Denon DL 304 or the AT 33EV(or the Japanese version..whatever its designation is) would be candidates. Later down the road I may do a different arm, but that is what is there now.

The other option is a different MM cartridge. One thing I noticed about the Digitrac cartridge is that it does macro dynamics very well, more powerful sounding than the MC in certain ways. I do have a few MM bodies here that need styli, but I wonder if they are worth pursuing. Signet TK5EA, Signet Signet AM30, Ortofon OM 30, and AT 155LC, are the suspects, and I think the 155LC would make the most sense to invest in. But the question I ask myself, should I just sell the bodies off and forgo spending money on styli, and instead buy one good MM. The problem is that I am not well versed in this niche, I understand that the Ortofon 2M Black is well received, I would like to have gotten my hands on one of the acrylic bodied Soundsmith cartridges, of course there are the Clearaudios...although those have been insinuated to be a rebadged AT, the wood bodied Grado's, and that seems to be the major players I am aware of.

This isn't anything I am in a hurry to resolve. Just my current audio project that is a nice little diversion. This is my secondary table, and it has been a fun process of discovery.

I guess one of the main questions I got, is there a way to shield the iron platter from a MC cartridge? Second one is what would be viable MM options that would be competitive with a middle of the pack MC?





Regards
Mister Pig

Save yourself some grief and forget about a MC with that arm.  The 304 likes arms around 12 to 16g anyway.  The straight ADC arms w/removable headshell had a well deserved reputation for MM/MI only.  That said, you can get good results with a MM.  The 155LC stylus is excellent on a Signet TK-7LCa.  Total capacitance has to be < 200pF with AT/CA, but if you only have the body.....  The Clearaudio MM are not rebadged AT. They're custom made by AT and there is no AT equivalent.  You could get one with a busted stylus and send it to Soundsmith for a $150 stylus.  He can make it more compliant than stock.  It's designed for med to high mass arms.  Cu = 15, so it's not a good match with orig stylus.  There are pleanty of other good MM carts, most of them vintage. 

The Thorens has a lot of potential.  You might want to consider another arm if you prefer MC.  Put a great arm/cart on there and it will probably beat your other table.      
neo

[Mister Pig]

Save yourself some grief and forget about a MC with that arm.  The 304 likes arms around 12 to 16g anyway.  The straight ADC arms w/removable headshell had a well deserved reputation for MM/MI only.  That said, you can get good results with a MM.  The 155LC stylus is excellent on a Signet TK-7LCa.  Total capacitance has to be < 200pF with AT/CA, but if you only have the body.....  The Clearaudio MM are not rebadged AT. They're custom made by AT and there is no AT equivalent.  You could get one with a busted stylus and send it to Soundsmith for a $150 stylus.  He can make it more compliant than stock.  It's designed for med to high mass arms.  Cu = 15, so it's not a good match with orig stylus.  There are pleanty of other good MM carts, most of them vintage. 

The Thorens has a lot of potential.  You might want to consider another arm if you prefer MC.  Put a great arm/cart on there and it will probably beat your other table.      
neo

Well I have on hand a Signet TK5Ea body, and an AT 155LC cartridge that needs a new stylus, old one is wore out. As I recall Stereoneedles has NOS 155LC stylus in stock. While not cheap, they are $180, in the grand scheme of things that is not bad....especially since the beryllium cantilevers are no longer available.

You mention the Signet TK7 CLa body with the 155 LC stylus. Is there significant difference between this body and the TK5 or AT 155 bodies I have on hand? Enough to make it worthwhile to go find one? Like I said, I am not well versed in MM cartridges, been using MC for most of my life. The last MM I had was a Goldring 1042, but that was a very nice cartridge....I enjoyed it.

You know the ADC arm is not a bad unit for what they sell for today. Very nice bearings, good construction, nice choice of materials....hard to believe they were as inexpensive as they were. Even on the used market, they don't cost too much. I  got mine with three different sizes of counter weights, I could add a bit of head shell weight to tweak the mass level for a current production MM cartridge if necessary. Actually I got 5 stock ADC head shells too, so I can fit a few cartridges to this arm. I also cut 4 arm boards for the table, so I can fiddle with different arms and see what comes about. I am supposed to have a Sony PUA 7 heading my way sometime this year, and have one arm board set aside for it.

The 124 is a nice table, I can understand why some covet it. I enjoy listening to this combo, and it has a markedly different presentation of music than my other table. It will be a fun project to see where this one goes. I plan on owning this table for the long haul, so I will invest money and time in it to see where it can go.

Regards
Mister Pig

[neobop]

Getting back to your original consideration about the ferrous platter, there is a possibility that a mu metal sheet under the mat, would allow the use of MC carts.  You'd have to consult with someone else about that, possibly Ba Morin.  I've read about certain MC that will work as is.  I've also read about some getting glued to the record, broken cantilevers, and requiring considerable force to lift off.  I'd think that a 33EV with a neo magnet might be a poor candidate.  I don't know what would work.

There were 2 ADC straight arms, I think, that had removable headshell.  They really did have a reputation of being a poor choice for MC carts.  I heard a few, mostly with MM/MI types and it was good. I heard one with a LOMC, a 103d (high cu version) that wasn't so good.  It was a long time ago and my experience with them is limited, but maybe you'd get better results with a MM anyway.

For a MM, I wouldn't recommend an AT, Signet, or CA unless you can terminate with less than 200pF total shunt capacitance, not always easy.  That includes your internal arm wire + tonearm cable + phono preamp.  More than 200pF and it will get bright.  The ATN155LC is a great stylus that will fit the modern 120/440 body.  It will not fit the older Signet TK5E, 7E.  They take the AT-15/20 stylus.  The ATN20SS (shibata/beryllium) is another great stylus, especially on an AT-15 or 20SS.  It's around $225 LpGear. The TK5Ea is nice, but not a world class cart.  The 155LC is a little better AFAIK.  I think the later TK7_ is the way to go with that stylus.  You might want to see what you can find before you get the stylus. One of the better CA carts, like the Virtuoso or Beta S with wood top and custom stylus is really good.  Just tell Soundsmith what arm you have.  I have a Virtuoso and an AT-15SS - the 15SS is a little sweeter, the Virtuoso a little closer to a ZYX. 

Other carts available today - 2M Black is very popular, Nagaoka MP-500 should be sweeter w/resolution.  They outperform the Goldring 1042 IMO, which is decent but...  Older Goldring G900 is supposed to be way better. For an Ortofon go to Wm Thakker in Germany.  He has best price on Ortofon.  He may still have an M20FL super. That's slightly distant at 47K and might be just the ticket for that table/system.  Sweet detailed high end with good bass and you don't need to stand on your head with capacitance.  53K brings the mids up.  That should be around $200. 

You prob know the story with vintage MM/MI.  The ADC have a rep for suspension collapse but some sound good.  Maybe there's a Stanton 881 - slightly sweet, nice sound.  Maybe a Garrott P77.  If you find a Technics EPC-100c MKIV or U250c MKIV, snatch it.
neo

Edit: The Goldring model is G800.  There are some other vintage carts like the Empire 4000 DIII, Acutex LPM 320 STR3, Signet TK-9 series, TK-10ML, Grace  F-9 Ruby, etc that are outstanding.  Many people have little idea about the potential of HO carts.  Budget models are normally used with inexpensive equipment and better ones are often not set up with the care and consideration that MCs get. Depending on the cart, you might have to adjust the resistance load, just like a MC.

[TONEPUB]

I've used an Ortofon VMS 20mk 2 with good luck on one of my 124's but for the reasons mentioned, have been hesitant to try a MC.  But for my other 124, I've ponied up for the Swissonor non magnetic platter.  Going to try the obvious Ortofon SPU MC, but will experiment with a few others.  No idea when the platter will get here along with the completely rebuilt table, but will be happy to keep you posted.  I'm guessing it's going to be a Christmas break thing.

[Mister Pig]

Well I dusted the system off yesterday, and tonight decided to hook up the 124 for a listen. The aluminium upper platter still has a ding and needs to be replaced, which has me a bit stalled on using it. Currently I have a set of thin rubber bumpers working as a spacer on the riser tabs that re fitted to the iron platter, and this allows me to play it without a dire effect on sound quality. Also, I have either the Clear Audio Signature or the Dynavector 23RS slated for use on this table, and the Digitrac cartridge on it is just kind of a place holder. Both cartridges need a rebuild, and the Signature is going in first. I did mount the Dynavector to a head shell and cue it to the table and weigh it out. I got no significant interference I could find from the iron platter with the aluminium top platter in place. Now i removed the top platter and cued things up, clunk! Definite attraction there. Perhaps i will wait and not mount anything up until the Dynavector is rebuilt. Both cartridges will require a different tone arm, which is something that will be looked at in the future. for now I think I will find a MM cartridge for the ADC LMF 2 that is currently on it. I really have made no progress with moving this project along.

So those are the reasons for not playing the table, of course the Serac/String Theory/ZYX combo is a fine combination to listen to. But with that said, the 124 is a fine table in its own right. I listen to it, and it shares so many traits with the Serac, that in some respects  sounds like its little brother. Of course if I fit it with a top flight arm and cartridge, I would suspect that it would be its equal, as Neobop had mentioned previously....the 124 may very well be that good. The sound is smooth and free from a lot of nasty resonances, gets dynamic contrasts right, and images nicely. Now the 124 is not a true idler drive table, and the Serac is not a true belt drive table, but rather a tape drive. Both tables sound quite nice, and I can see why the 124 has been rediscovered, and is so sought after. You can pay a kilo buck now for a restored drive unit, and you know what, they are worth every dollar. My Serac sold for $3.2K when in production, and has been discontinued due to the cost of manufacturing. In many cases you can buy a 124 with a good arm for $1.5K give or take a few hundred, and have a remarkable table.

My eventual goal for this table is to max it out. I had intended it to be a spinner of mainstream rock and roll or pop vinyl, but its just to nice for that. Perhaps one day I will fit it with an Eminent Technology 2 or 2.5 arm, or possibly a previous generation SME V. But for now I am glad to own it, and the ADC LMF-2 arm that I sourced for it is quite nice. You know, looking at all the design parameters and build quality of the LMF-2 I have a hard time believing that a Rega RB 251 or 301 are superior arms. I have owned a fully tricked out 251, and never really cared for the arm. The only advantage my 251 would have had is the Incognito rewire I had done, whereas the ADC has two breaks in wiring, with the removable head shell and the tone arm wiring DIN plug. But it really is a nice arm, and I can see moving it to a table that spins pop and rock.

Well that is my audiophiling for the week,

Regards
Mister Pig