RS5 retrofits

Louis O · « **on:** 21 Sep 2012, 10:35 pm »

Hi All,

The RS5 retrofits are ready to go.

They are priced as follows.

$160 per pair or $125 per pair with the return of the MQ5 Hemp drivers.

The RS5's will fit all Super 3 and Super 5 speakers.

Thanks,
Louis

DaveC113 · « **Reply #1 on:** 22 Sep 2012, 12:28 am »

I just got my new drivers installed!

They are still breaking in, so I'll follow up later with my impressions on sound quality, but for now I think they are just as good or slightly better than the old drivers right out of the box. The sound character seems to be about the same, so it sounds like the same speaker only better. I notice they have more bass impact and play a 2-3 dB louder at the same volume setting so far. My old drivers took hundreds of hours to break in and didn't sound nearly as good out of the box. The new drivers are only supposed to require about 50 hours of break in, so it should be interesting to see how much of a difference break in makes with the new drivers. If they improve half as much as the old drivers did they will be a big improvement.

Here's a few pics of the changeover:

The old drivers. Unscrew them and remove them from the cabinet.

The speaker leads soldered onto the old drivers. My speakers came with push-on connectors, if you have them it'll make this easy, but if you can solder I think that is a better solution. Change the speaker leads to the new drivers and screw them back into the cabinet. The new drivers have damping material around the edge, they need to be screwed down to compress the material. Make sure the edge of the driver makes contact with the cabinet, but do not overtorque the screws! Brass is very soft!

Next, I popped out the ports, they are hot glued in, but should come out with a bit of force. Louis said the new driver uses 2.5" ports, so I needed to remove the port extension. Here's before and after pics.

While the drivers were out, I beveled the inside edge of the cabinet's driver hole with a rasp file. In the pic, to the left of the file is rounded off, to the right is the stock speaker cab. Louis did not instruct me to do this, so do it at your own risk... maybe Louis can comment to see if he thinks its a good idea...

When I replaced the internal wire I also replaced the binding posts with Pomona 3770. They have a max mounting depth of .25" or so, which means install was not exactly easy... I made 2 aluminum plates to mount the binding posts to, which are in turn attached to the cabinet with a gasket made of industrial felt and 4 brass screws countersunk into the alum plate.

My Omega XRS, pardon the dust, it's not nearly that bad in real life, the photo picked it up quite well...

Louis O · « **Reply #2 on:** 25 Sep 2012, 10:23 pm »

Hi DaveC113,

Great news and very happy you recieved the new drivers and the install was easy. They are much better out of the box and get better with break in. The bass is stronger and the sensitivity much higher than before. You're right they do have the transparent sound and speed as the original hemp drivers. The top end is also much better balanced.

Great to see all the mods you've done and I do agree with easing the inside edge of the cutout. I've been doing this for a while now with a router set up. Also the later models do have Brass machine screws and inserts.

They do take about 50 hours to break in. I break them in with bass heavy music and a pretty good volume. They may take a little longer otherwise.

The baffle is multi layer and 1" thick

Many thanks for the pictures and install tips. I really like the maple risers and cones. They make a big difference. I'm sure the amps sound great, look great.

Thanks,
Louis

DaveC113 · « **Reply #3 on:** 26 Sep 2012, 03:24 am »

I like the threaded inserts for mounting the drivers, very nice!

I'm only halfway through break in but I have to say I'm really impressed. If these speakers were hidden from view nobody would have a clue what they listening to, they do not sound like 4.5" drivers, the freq response is so flat they sound like a much larger speaker... and most of my friends can't believe the old hemp drivers could do what they do. The new drivers make these speakers an even better value, and paired with a good SET amp the performance per dollar is off the charts, I don't think anything comes close. I think they are comparable to the Feastrex d5nf at $5000 just for a pair of drivers, and certainly better balanced and more versatile than the Feastrex all 'round. The Feastrex might win with girl with guitar folksy type music, but it's not going to hang with the Omega in many other ways.

The only nit I can pick might be that the speaker now breaks up instead of sounding "shouty" and harsh when pushed too hard. But it breaks up near the same volume the old drivers started sounding shouty, so ultimately max volume potential is about the same. Maybe I need a pair of Omega Super 3 XRS MAX with four 4.5" drivers per cabinet arranged in a square, as close together as possible... Should be about 100 dB sensitivity and be able to REALLY crank out some volume, at least 6 dB louder from my limited understanding of these things. Of course my 6 wpc SET wouldn't do it anymore, but I can put in a UL switch for 10-12 watts when needed. What do you think Louis?

Edit: here's a link to the hook-up wire I used, I have been experimenting with it for interconnects and speaker cable and it is the best sounding wire I've ever used. Not too expensive either, but it takes some practice to remove the enamel... flux and a hot soldering iron with a big tip and lots of solder on it will do it, a solder pot would be ideal though.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/wire_hookup_neotech_copper_cot.html

Louis O · « **Reply #4 on:** 28 Sep 2012, 10:22 pm »

Hi DaveC113,

Thanks and they work out great. I have #8-32 machine screws in brass and they really torque the driver down evenly.

Many thanks for your great post and impressions of the RS5 driver. They do sound a lot bigger than the old driver and the added SPL really helps, especially with SET. I worked very hard on getting the balance much better than before and they are more even throughout the range. The top end is a lot sweeter too. The cone is a fiber blend and still as transparent as the old Hemp.

As always I'll try to keep the costs at a reasonable level. Great to hear about the comparisons with the Feastrex.
I haven't heard them myself and They sure are expensive.

You may be seeing a multi-driver Super 3 soon. I have the new website being built now and I have a section called custom. I have a few interesting projects brewing.

Thanks for the link and the wire looks great. I use to use a solder pot for the enamel on Cardas wire years ago. I'll try out your cable too.

Thanks again,
Louis

wmj · « **Reply #5 on:** 30 Sep 2012, 05:46 pm »

I've just updated the drivers in my Super 5 Monitors. The installation was easy and the sound is stunning. "Juicy" comes to mind. In my system this was a most worthwhile update.

The success of this inspired me to bring back my 30 plus year old Berning EA-230 amp, so that I can send the Decware off for it's own update.

Cheers to Louis! His speakers are a joy.

Louis O · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Oct 2012, 07:33 pm »

Hi wmj,

Many thanks for your great post. Great to hear that the upgrade is sounding wonderful with your gear. Really like both amps. The Berning and the Decware are top notch. I heard the Decware upgrades are really good too.

Thanks again,
Louis

geno51 · « **Reply #7 on:** 8 Oct 2012, 05:05 pm »

hi louis, just scored a pristine pair of super omega 3xrs's in zebrawood. i am interested in replacing the OLD fostek 4.5's that are in there. sounds like a pretty simple mod from what i've read. what is the lead time and price i if i was to do this? i'm always afraid of messing something up that works just fine, but just removing some screws,pulling out the driver and replacing that with the new one sounds too simple. will await your reply and think more about it. thanks, austin11

Louis O · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Oct 2012, 10:03 pm »

Hi geno51,

Awesome news and welcome to the forum.

You did really well and Zebrawood is one of my favorite finishes. The RS5 transplant will transform them. It's really easy to do and will take about 10 minutes. You wont have to change out the ports either.

The RS5's are ready to go and they cost $160 a pair.

Thanks,
Louis

BruceD7575 · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Nov 2012, 07:08 am »

Dave, are you running two strands of the neotech for the positive and one for the negative as Louis has internally? Also, are you braiding the wire running between your amp and the Omegas or just running them separately? I'm planning to try bypassing the binding posts (via the port) with some of the wire you're using. I've heard excellent things about from another person who's been experimenting with it as well.

The new drivers are a really nice upgrade to my XRS5, by the way. All the improvements noted in this thread: better bass, more efficient, smoother top end, better imaging/detail. All good stuff, and they're still breaking in!

Quote from: DaveC113 on 26 Sep 2012, 03:24 am

I like the threaded inserts for mounting the drivers, very nice!

I'm only halfway through break in but I have to say I'm really impressed. If these speakers were hidden from view nobody would have a clue what they listening to, they do not sound like 4.5" drivers, the freq response is so flat they sound like a much larger speaker... and most of my friends can't believe the old hemp drivers could do what they do. The new drivers make these speakers an even better value, and paired with a good SET amp the performance per dollar is off the charts, I don't think anything comes close. I think they are comparable to the Feastrex d5nf at $5000 just for a pair of drivers, and certainly better balanced and more versatile than the Feastrex all 'round. The Feastrex might win with girl with guitar folksy type music, but it's not going to hang with the Omega in many other ways.

The only nit I can pick might be that the speaker now breaks up instead of sounding "shouty" and harsh when pushed too hard. But it breaks up near the same volume the old drivers started sounding shouty, so ultimately max volume potential is about the same. Maybe I need a pair of Omega Super 3 XRS MAX with four 4.5" drivers per cabinet arranged in a square, as close together as possible... Should be about 100 dB sensitivity and be able to REALLY crank out some volume, at least 6 dB louder from my limited understanding of these things. Of course my 6 wpc SET wouldn't do it anymore, but I can put in a UL switch for 10-12 watts when needed. What do you think Louis?

Edit: here's a link to the hook-up wire I used, I have been experimenting with it for interconnects and speaker cable and it is the best sounding wire I've ever used. Not too expensive either, but it takes some practice to remove the enamel... flux and a hot soldering iron with a big tip and lots of solder on it will do it, a solder pot would be ideal though.

http://www.partsconnexion.com/wire_hookup_neotech_copper_cot.html

DaveC113 · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Nov 2012, 09:06 pm »

Bruce, I'm just running one run of wire per side. I just taped it together using scotch tape every foot or so, should reduce inductance to have the runs close together. Since the wire has the film core to it, it's not super easy to work with or braid compared to normal wire. It's also fairly fragile, so if you're not going to use the binding posts I'd think about some way to secure the wire to the cabinet to prevent the wire from tearing away from the terminals on the driver. One option might be to use the binding posts as clamps... bring the internal wire through the port and twist it together with the speaker wire, then use the binding posts as a clamp to secure the wiring. Good Luck!

JLM · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Nov 2012, 10:16 am »

Louis/Dave,

How much juice (watts at X ohms) can the new drivers routinely/safely handle (in real world musical use)?

I'm a firm believer in having plenty enough power to provide a "commanding grip" on the speaker and know that its distorted/overdriven amps that do more speaker harm than excessive clean power. I find that having abundant power seems to help improve resolution on all aspects of the music and at all sound pressure levels.

OTOH 98% of the time I'm a "very mellow listener," more chamber music than Led Zeppelin (maybe because most of my listening is done at 5AM and again late night or maybe because I'm approaching old fart status).

gbeard · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Nov 2012, 01:40 pm »

When you actually do reach "old fart" status, you will be required to listen to Led Zep at 5am. It will take you back to your youthful roots!

g

Canada Rob · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Nov 2012, 06:28 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 5 Nov 2012, 10:16 am

Louis/Dave,

How much juice (watts at X ohms) can the new drivers routinely/safely handle (in real world musical use)?

I'm a firm believer in having plenty enough power to provide a "commanding grip" on the speaker and know that its distorted/overdriven amps that do more speaker harm than excessive clean power. I find that having abundant power seems to help improve resolution on all aspects of the music and at all sound pressure levels.

OTOH 98% of the time I'm a "very mellow listener," more chamber music than Led Zeppelin (maybe because most of my listening is done at 5AM and again late night or maybe because I'm approaching old fart status).

Hi JLM
At 94.5 db efficiency for the new 3 series (1.5 db higher than the 5 series) there is no need for high power. I have been running various Omega and Hoyt-Bedford speakers for years on various 2 w/ch Decware SET's with no issues. The new Super 3XRS will fill a large room at very satisfying volume levels with no indication of distortion. If you have never heard Louis' speakers on a well designed single tube per output SET, you owe it to yourself to try it. The 3XRS on the 2w/ch Decware SET has superb bass grip, almost like a sub was in the system. The old saying is true: if the first watt is lousy, the rest, however many, won't matter.

PS: I just noticed your post was to Louis and Dave. Sorry if I butted in. CR

DaveC113 · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Nov 2012, 06:51 pm »

JLM, my EL34 SET at ~5.5 WPC is a good match for the RS5, the speakers will break up a few dB before the amp is hitting clipping. So I'd guess about 3 WPC RMS.

I don't have a meter but that should equate to high 90 dB range continuous with peaks in the low 100 dB range.

I would like a speaker that'll get about 6 dB louder with more mid bass impact, but it plays most music loud enough for me.

JLM · « **Reply #15 on:** 5 Nov 2012, 08:09 pm »

gbeard,

Are you trying to kill me with Led Zep at 5AM?

Canada Rob,

No problem regarding butting in. I used to hang around the Decware site, even attended the first two DecFests, so am familiar with Steve's 1st watt adage. Tried hard for years to like/acclaimate to SETs, but finally went with my first love (speakers with full/tight bass) and couldn't find such a speaker I liked that could be driven by his amps. His Torii now could change that, but it's not cheap and I've never had good luck with tube amps, so the idea of all those different tubes with the price tag scares me away. And I hate playing the constant upgrade game or conversely wondering what I'm missing by not playing the game.

Dave,

Thanks for the info. I saw you posting about wanting a 4 driver variation and wondered. 100 dB peaks is pretty puny (but not totally unexpected). My absolute lower limit is 105 dB peaks in room (about 20 wpc), hopefully 110 dB (about 40 wpc) as I value headroom.

Darn, looks like the Omega 3 is not for me.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #16 on:** 5 Nov 2012, 08:19 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 5 Nov 2012, 08:09 pm

gbeard,

Are you trying to kill me?

Canada Rob,

No problem regarding butting in. I used to hang around the Decware site, even attended the first two DecFests, so am familiar with Steve's 1st watt adage. Tried hard for years to like/acclaimate to SETs, but finally went with my first love (speakers with full/tight bass) and couldn't find such a speaker I liked that could be driven by his amps. His Torii now could change that, but it's not cheap and I've never had good luck with tube amps, so the idea of all those different tubes with the price tag scares me away. And I hate playing the constant upgrade game or conversely wondering what I'm missing by not playing the game.

Dave,

Thanks for the info. I saw you posting about wanting a 4 driver variation and wondered. 100 dB peaks is pretty puny (but not totally unexpected). My absolute lower limit is 105 dB peaks in room, hopefully 110 dB as I value headroom.

Darn, looks like the Omega 3 is not for me.

I measured the hemp drivers at 103-105 dB peaks, I think the RS5s are fairly similar. In any case, it's definitely not a high SPL speaker system.

The issue is the sound quality is incredibly good, rivaling other single driver speakers that are well over $10k... and finding a speaker that can match it in sound quality AND play louder is going to cost A LOT more money. For most of what I listen to the SPL levels are high enough.

Also, I am going to try changing the RC filter going into the output stage of my amp to attenuate bass with a corner freq of ~30 Hz at -3 dB. I think this will allow considerably more headroom and higher volumes before the cone starts breaking up, my subwoofer should make this do-able, so it is possible that a few bucks in resistors and caps could be a good solution here.

JLM · « **Reply #17 on:** 5 Nov 2012, 09:39 pm »

Thanks Dave, please keep us all posted how it goes.

I see two uses for the small standmounts I'm considering: smallish room/serious listening; and very large room with powered subwoofers/casual listening. So there may be hope. Maybe Louis will pop in with some solid technical info.

Canada Rob · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Nov 2012, 05:30 am »

Quote from: JLM on 5 Nov 2012, 08:09 pm

gbeard,

Are you trying to kill me with Led Zep at 5AM?

Canada Rob,

No problem regarding butting in. I used to hang around the Decware site, even attended the first two DecFests, so am familiar with Steve's 1st watt adage. Tried hard for years to like/acclaimate to SETs, but finally went with my first love (speakers with full/tight bass) and couldn't find such a speaker I liked that could be driven by his amps. His Torii now could change that, but it's not cheap and I've never had good luck with tube amps, so the idea of all those different tubes with the price tag scares me away. And I hate playing the constant upgrade game or conversely wondering what I'm missing by not playing the game.

Dave,

Thanks for the info. I saw you posting about wanting a 4 driver variation and wondered. 100 dB peaks is pretty puny (but not totally unexpected). My absolute lower limit is 105 dB peaks in room (about 20 wpc), hopefully 110 dB (about 40 wpc) as I value headroom.

Darn, looks like the Omega 3 is not for me.

JLM,
I understand we each have our preferences in sound, but I would not write off the Super 3XRS. I agree with you that low powered SETs can be hard to find speakers for due to their minuscule power. The 4-1/2" hemp cones at 93 db where borderline for the 2 w/ch SE84 in a room but utter bliss on the desktop. A sub was needed to complete the picture for a room system, but then it was terrific. Strangely enough, the extra 1-1/2 db and the tilting of the 3 series sound down toward the lower frequencies (not to mention extending the top end an additional 2k) has made this series so easy to drive for this little amp that there is no need for a sub with the Super 3XRS even in a large room. The other speaker that brings this little amp out of it's corner are the 97db Hoyt-Bedfords. The SE84 will run these speakers with utter ease.

I have had the basic SE84C+, the Select with CCE mod, V-Caps and stepped attenuator, and now a Select Super Zen with CKC mod, V-Caps and stepped attenuator, and yes, each amp is better than the one before it. That said, any of these amps can be upgraded to the latest configuration for a very moderate cost. Few outfits offer this kind of service, not to mention; no planned obsolescence. If all I had ever heard was the original SE84C+ I would be missing nothing by not upgrading because:
1) The basic SE84C+ beat every other amp I had heard up until that time, and: 2) If I never had heard the upgraded models, I never would have known what I was missing, so would not have cared. The very first Zen amp is still a very formidable piece today, 16 years later.

You may think I am a Decware fanboy, but I am not. It's just that I have been in audio for decades, and have not come upon anything close to the price that can touch a 2 watt Decware amp (I haven't heard any of Steve's bigger amps), and Louis' speakers are the ones to bring out the best in it, or no doubt in any well designed flea power SET.

DaveC113 · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Nov 2012, 05:59 am »

I have built my amp specifically for my Super 3 XRS, and recently came up with a configuration that works well, really incredible sound... it is a SET amp but with much lower distortion due to the Aikido preamp/driver section. Lower distortion is comparing the Aikido as a driver vs a 12BH7 single triode driver with a CCS plate load, which is no slouch either. The Aikido is using 6SN7s as input and output tubes, so 20 dB gain, and driving triode strapped EL34s in cathode bias with no feedback. With a DAC delivering 2V RMS the gain is perfect. The amp makes 6 wpc at the onset of clipping, and it will drive the RS5s to breakup before it runs out of power.