Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...

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azryan

Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #20 on: 10 Jun 2004, 05:28 pm »
Good stuff.

Hey, are the side walls symetrical there? As in I assume not one side drywall and the other a big glass sliding door (I figure you'd mention something like that), but are the two side walls exactly the same?

Just curious if maybe a room object added to such a big change?

mgalusha

Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #21 on: 10 Jun 2004, 06:20 pm »
Actually he has a dedicated listening room that is nearly symetrical. It's in a basement with double thick drywall over insulation. Eigth Nerve room treatments are in place as well. The floor is carpeted and overall the room is fairly dead.

The only objects that may have affected things were the RM40's which we just moved into the corners while testing the Alpha's. Obviously not a very good solution for the long term but we mainly wanted to make sure everything was working properly and that I hadn't made any wiring errors.  :nono:  Once the speakers were in the same plane the sound was pretty good. I'm sure having the other speakers sitting there didn't help but mostly it seemed a matter of having both of the Alpha's the same distance from the listening position.

mike

Marbles

Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #22 on: 10 Jun 2004, 06:29 pm »
Not that he can do anything about it now, but I've read that double drywall is very reflective and single drywall is obsorbtive.  That might account for a bit of what you heard.

Glad things are coming together nicely.

Turk

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« Reply #23 on: 10 Jun 2004, 08:39 pm »
I agree the double -drywall is very reflective.  In fact, Mike doesn't  know that the inside wall is triple sheetrocked :roll: .  The room was built 14 years ago and hasn't been used for audio for 10 years.  At the time it was built, I was advised to "keep that bass from bleeding out" by a local audio guru.  Well, it's like Hitler's bunker.  Hell, if we have a tornado here in the Denver metro area I'm feeling safe.  Marbles is correct that very little bass passes through.   It's going to require proper speaker placement and treatment for standing waves, everything has to go somewhere and standing wave energy that isn't dissipated or absorbed hangs around for awhile screwing up the sound.

On a more positive note, the room portrays depth well and provides excellent imaging despite the bass issues :).   Someone asked about the upper bass on the RM40s.  In my old room they had very good performance in that area but low bass was rolled off.  The Alphas are very promising, once Mike and I positioned them equidistant from the front wall.  In defense of our placement, we each are kinda blind in one eye. :wink: (boy was that bad).

A note to Danny and MLS:  Make the woofer holes a half milimeter larger.  Everthing went together well, but the stain in the woofer holes can be a pain and the router left a very small hump.  No big deal.  But an easy fix, I think.  They cabinets are so nice you hate to see any cracked veneer.

azryan

Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #24 on: 10 Jun 2004, 08:41 pm »
Sounds like a great room.

I'd think 'if' the 40's being there did anything bad it'd only be on the deep bass loading int the corners (and the 40's might actually help by being there?).

You seemed to be talking about the upper mids and treble so that does seem like it was an effect of you moving the Alphas those few inches.

Maybe something from the wall right behind you? If there's one. Usually the Alphas are  for sitting a little further back that 11' so I was guessing there was a wall behind you guys? If it's got a fiberglass or something panel there though they that wouldn't seem to be part of the effect either.

"-I've read that double drywall is very reflective and single drywall is obsorbtive. That might account for a bit of what you heard.-"

I think it's a matter of the freq. hitting it.

Obviously double think drywall is going to be twice as hard (reflective) as a single sheet though but in the upper mids and highs both should be very reflective not allowing any of that sound to get past and into the fiberglass in the wall (which would cut up that reflection).

He did say he's got full room treatments though right so I assume wall panels in front of the drywall at reflection points?

Anyay.... seems like a non-issue since he moved 'em and balanced out the sound. Whatever works in the end right.

mgalusha

Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #25 on: 11 Jun 2004, 03:28 am »
The listening chair is about 5 1/2 feet from the rear wall. I think Jerry said it's about 55" from the wall. There is a fiberglass panel on the wall behind the Alphas and one on each wall at the first reflection point.

It seemed like the bad sound we had at first was caused by the difference in arrival times from the unequal speaker distances. Not sure and some folks will argue that small time dealy doesn't matter. The problems were certainly in the mid and upper frequencies.

Perhaps line arrays are just more sensitive to placement, I don't know as this is the first line array I've really gotten to play with. Every other time I've listened to a line array it was in a "hands off" type of situation. All I know for sure is that the change was so dramatic that is was like listening to a different system.

Turk

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Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #26 on: 23 Jun 2004, 03:25 pm »
First real effort  to tune the Alphas after breaking them in with music 24/7 for the past 12 days ( the electric bill ought to look like the GNP for Beliz).  As usual my good friend Mike G. showed up with all his equipment.  While I am sure most folks believe this, I can't stress enough the value of waiting until your speakers are broken in both elecrtically and mechanically.  Also, if you are not a believer in the huge improvements realized when you take time to work with speaker placement, get religion, it is more of an improvement when done correctly than adding a SOTA component and it's free. :D

First the Mike meaured the listening position and the speakers so the listening position was dead center.  Mike then took a 3 foot piece of masking tape and placed it about 4ft. of the floor horizontaly on the wall behind the listening position.  He then meaured and marked dead center on the tape to reflect dead center between the speakers.  He then measured and made 3 marks on each side of the center mark about 3" apart.  You can make as many as you like depending upon your desire for perfection and whether you were properly potty trained.

Using a laser level and the inside surface of the speaker, Mike could perfectly adjust toe-in by pointing the laser to the correct mark on either side of dead center.  Beauty of this is one person can move each speaker perfectly and replicate the results without the usual crude, time consuming tape measurement approach that we have all tried.  It was short work to find that in my room the Alphas sounded  best with the woofers crossing slightly behind the listening position.  Soundstaging and tonal balance improved dramatically as did the smoothness of the response.  The speakers did not benefit from firing directly at you as do the VMPS RM40s.    I don't know what other Alpha owners have found, but in my room they do not need a lot of toe-in.

Next,  Mike switched out the resister values and we found that best results were gained by reducing the value down to 15 to 20.  It warmed things up nicely and added body to vocals and instruments.  Seems the multiple drivers are tight and crisp in the bass without needing too much electronic control.  Pay particular attention to male vocals and wooden instruments for correctness.  The bass tuning will not adequately correct room modes....equalization or room treatment will.  Use the GR tunning approach with an ear towards getting the tonal balance right.  It is excellent in that respect.

With a few room measurements it became clear that my room has a pretty strong 100 to 160hz bump and a 40 to 63hz suck out.  On to ASC or Real Traps for additional help.  Now on to speaker sound.

Once the above adjustments were made, and my outboard X/O bypassed, the Alphas became the most transparent speakers I have ever owned.  The soudstage is remarkable, better than any large speaker I have owned.  and unlike other large speakers, once they were properly set up, images did not have the tendency to get bigger as the speaker went louder.  Those of you with big line arrays and big panels know what I am talking about.

Dynamics are unrestrained.  How loud will these speakers play?  I was afraid to go any louder, but the Parasound JC-1s put out aboud 1000 peak watts into 4ohms and at 3/4 throttle the sound was crystal clear :!:

Cymbols are reproduced with clarity and sound like metal, with wonderful attack and decay.  Depth is very good if not the equal of the bigger Vandersteen's. Detail is reproduced like a world class monitor and without being etched or giving you the fingers on the chalkboard effect.  Beware, you will hear everything on the recording.  However, the Alphas for all their ability to reveal are not as nasty as ,say, my JM Lab mini Utopias or Theil 3.6s.  Since this is not per se a review, I'll wait and post in Critic's Circle.

Please note that transistor components leaning toward bright will not mate well with these speakers as will edgy cable.    

As it stands, this is a wold class product, supported by an individual who knows it and treats the customer right.  I have owned 25 pairs of speakers since 1970.  Fromk Klipschhorns to DQ10s to Apogees to Theils to ML Prodigys to JM Lab to the RM 40s.  These are the best.

mgalusha

Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #27 on: 24 Jun 2004, 03:57 am »
I have to agree that after some tuning and tweaking the Alphas were truly kicking ass. IMO the biggest shocker during tuning was removing the Marchand XO from the system. A Marchand XM44 has been in the system for a while to high pass the mains at about 50Hz and direct everything below that to the sub (VMPS Larger). On a whim I pulled the XO and fed the amps a full range signal. The difference was staggering. The cliche about a veil being lifted could not have been more appropriate. With the RM40's in the system we had never noticed any degradation in sound when using the XM44 but the Alphas provided a crystal clear window which the XO was fogging up. :)

The Alpha LS is an outstanding speaker, a hearty congratulations to Danny.

doug s.

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Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #28 on: 24 Jun 2004, 01:18 pm »
Quote from: mgalusha
I have to agree that after some tuning and tweaking the Alphas were truly kicking ass. IMO the biggest shocker during tuning was removing the Marchand XO from the system. A Marchand XM44 has been in the system for a while to high pass the mains at about 50Hz and direct everything below that to the sub (VMPS Larger). On a whim I pulled the XO and fed the amps a full range signal. The difference was staggering. The cliche about a veil being lifted could not have been more appropriate. With the RM40's in the system we had never noticed any degradation in sound when using the XM44 but the Alphas provided a crystal clear window which the XO was fogging up...


well, i have tried my marchand (xm-9) w/more than a handful of different speakers, and i have never heard any veiling being lifted when the x-over went away.  if anyting, it's been the other way around, as the main speakers get better w/o having to do that last few hz...  i strongly suspect a room/speaker/x-over interaction that caused this - the 1st time i used the marchand, i *did* get a similar result as you mentioned - until i set the frequency response w/the aid of a pink noise generator & spectrum analyzer...

ymmv,

doug s.

BikeWNC

Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #29 on: 24 Jun 2004, 02:27 pm »
Turk or Mike,

What are the dimensions of the room and where are the speakers placed?

Thanks, Andy

Turk

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« Reply #30 on: 24 Jun 2004, 05:00 pm »
Andy,

The room is 23' long x 15' wide x 7'4" high.  The front of the Alphas are about 55" from the wall behind them.   They are about  8'6" apart and the listening position about 4' from the back wall.

mgalusha

Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #31 on: 24 Jun 2004, 05:11 pm »
Quote from: doug s.
well, i have tried my marchand (xm-9) w/more than a handful of different speakers, and i have never heard any veiling being lifted when the x-over went away.  if anyting, it's been the other way around, as the main speakers get better w/o having to do that last few hz...  i strongly suspect a room/speaker/x-over interaction that caused this - the 1st time i used the marchand, i *did* get a similar result as you mentioned - until i set the frequency response w/the aid of a pink noise generator & spectrum analyzer...

ymmv,

doug s.


Doug, this has been my experience in the past as well. I have owned an XM-9 and I agree, relieving the main speakers of having to reproduce the bottom octave or two provided a clearer midrange and better overall sound. In this case the improvements were mostly in the upper midrange and treble which is well away from the XO frequency of 50Hz. I believe the improvement we saw was simply a matter of the system being revealing enough to hear the effects of the addtional circuitry in the signal path.

Even with a high quality electronic XO such as the Marchand one can't avoid the fact that there is an additional active circuit between the pre and power amps. In this system the sound was better without the XO but as you mentioned in most cases the use of an active XO improves things markedly.

mike

doug s.

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« Reply #32 on: 24 Jun 2004, 06:15 pm »
mike,

your findings are certainly interesting, but i wonder if there isn't something else going on - room interaction, etc., that may be discovered w/use of a spectrum analyzer, which would allow precise dial-in of the x-over.  i only say this, cuz i have also used speakers with wery revealing upper midrange/treble, & not heard this veiling induced by the x-over.  and, the vmps' themselves, are known to be wery revealing...  

i know that an active x-over adds something else between amp & pre, but at this point, it's usually benign.  in fact, this is the 1st time i've ever heard someone find it *not* benign.  now, i am not directly familiar w/the xm-44.  it is supposedly a bit more difficult to dial in, due to its not having a damping pot, & having different plug in modules for both low *and* hi-pass, instead of one for both passes.  but, it's also supposed to be even *more* transparent than the xm-9, from what i've been told...

regards,

doug s.

mgalusha

Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #33 on: 24 Jun 2004, 07:16 pm »
doug,

Interestingly enough I had brought my laptop with the TrueAudio 1/24 octave spectrum analyzer on it but forgot one of the cables.  :oops: Hopefully next time I visit Turk's house I will remember to bring everything. If I remember I'll grab a screenshot of the response and post it.

It's also possible the preamp is happier driving the JC-1's directly instead of the XM-44. The JC-1's have a 100K input impedance and the XM-44 has an impedance of 30K. The preamp is a deHavilland UltraVerve and there is a fairly long run of IC's between the preamp and the Marchand and JC-1's. I know his XM-44 is built using premium Op-Amps and should be pretty transparent. Hard to say for sure without some more experimentation.

mike

doug s.

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« Reply #34 on: 24 Jun 2004, 08:13 pm »
hi mike,

i know impedence issues can be a problem - i experienced it myself once, w/a rogue preamp.  no way would it properly drive the 6m interconnects that feed my 25kohm-input marchand xm-9...  

i figured it wouldn't be an issue in this case, cuz the marchand input impedence is normally high enuff for most applications.  the ultraverve sez it should have no problem w/anything over 10kohm, but ya never know, especially w/longer i/c's...  the rogue magnum 99 i auditioned should theoretically be fine w/input impedences as low as 1500 ohms!?!  (i suspect the rogue's output impedence spec is grossly underestimated.  a li'l test i ran, per cary audio's dennis had's recommendation, where i crossed resistors over the outputs & listened for a wolume drop, indicated the 99's output impedence was likely somewhere around 2.5kohms; it was spec'd at 150 ohms output impedence.)

this issue may explain a lot (or mebbe not), it will be interesting to hear results of any follow-up re: either x-over setttings or impedence issues.

regards,

doug s.

OBF

Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #35 on: 24 Jun 2004, 09:19 pm »
Have you guys found the Alphas to be adequate without the sub, as a seperate issue from the Marchand interaction?  Like I'm wondering if you'll continue to run the Alphas full range?

Red Dragon Audio

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Another pair of Alphas lives... almost...
« Reply #36 on: 24 Jun 2004, 09:25 pm »
Regarding crossovers in the signal path:

Active crossovers can be a problem only because they have more parts and possibly a noisy power supply.

If however you want to get the best crossover possible with the best sound possible this is what I would do:

Get rid of the stock high level xover and all the caps and coils.  They are worse on the sound than what I am about to suggest to you and this will save you $100's.

Just a caveat though, you need to have two amps (or a multi channel amp) with high input impedence of say 50k or more and long interconnects are a NO-NO.

Build a passive line level crossover to match the curves of the stock crossover on your speakers.  You might have 3-6 components in line with your amp but it is far less damaging than the huge components after the amp.  Trust me...I have built and compared active line level crossovers to passive line level crossovers and there is no comparison in terms of sound quality.

Passive line level is the way to go.  

just my 2cents :wink:

Danny Richie

Digital crossovers.
« Reply #37 on: 25 Jun 2004, 12:09 am »
Will save you $100 but then again you will need two amps.  :lol:

Considering what I can spend on a good set of tube mono-blocks.... this could get pretty high.

Actually if doing something like that you better have some good measuring gear.

To get an active network to do what the passive one is doing will take some time.

Textbook style configurations need not apply.

I hope there is a way for controlling phase shift in that design too. It will be needed, especially if the amps, cables, etc are not all the same. Even still there may need to be some delay dialed in.

I did work with a guy that was developing all digital crossovers several years ago.

One speaker we tried it out on was a pair of Alpha's.

He had lots of on screen controls that allowed us to shoot responses and make corrections on the fly.

Everything was controlled digitally including volume controls.

The last thing in the signal path was a DA converter then on to a custom solid state amp that he had build as well.

It did sound really good too!

Red Dragon Audio

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Re: Digital crossovers.
« Reply #38 on: 25 Jun 2004, 05:23 am »
Quote from: Danny
Will save you $100 but then again you will need two amps.  :lol:

Considering what I can spend on a good set of tube mono-blocks.... this could get pretty high.

Actually if doing something like that you better have some good measuring gear.

To get an active network to do what the passive one is doing will take some time.

Textbook style configurations need not apply.

I hope there is a way for controlling phase shift in that design too. It will be needed, especially if the amps, cables, etc ar ...


I actually meant to say it will save you $100's (as in hundreds of dollars)  :wink:  I don't know the parts cost of the xover for the Alpha LS...what is it roughly?  I'd imagine around $200 or so if Goertz-like air core inductors are used and nice caps etc.

I never used any serious meassuring gear but some crossover design software a guy had over on AudioAsylum.com.  I told him the curves, and the input impedence of my amps and he gave me back values and layouts for the passive line level crossovers** Decent parts never cost me more than $10-$15 total for the PLLC's (passive line level crossovers).

It is true, you do have to buy another amp, but they don't have to be super powerful or really expensive (at least in my experience).  This is for a couple of reasons:
1)Since each amp only sees half the original signal, there is less IM Distortion and so each amp will actually sound cleaner b/c of this.
2)For that same reason, the amps will feel more powerful in that they are focused on amplifying one part of the musical spectrum (plus whenever you can remove any inductors between the amps and the drivers you get better bass response and removing even the nicest caps will still get you better overall sound by far...don't ask me the technical side of this but I always experienced it with every PLLC I made...plus they sounded way better than any speaker level xover.  Let me qualify that last statement too by saying I don't know everything and could be very wrong but my personal experiences have proven to me, time and again, that PLLC's when properly used are the best way to go if a xover is neccessary.)

I would not try to mix different amps unless you have individual attenuators on each of them so you can match the gain of each amp...then it's okay to say use a tube amp on the mids/highs and a SS amp for the low end.

I never ran into a problem with phase as I maintained the same slopes as the stock xovers.  If there ever was a phase problem, it could be instantly solved by just swapping the polarity on one of the drivers (now if your amps invert phase or something, then that is a different case but again, you can fix that by reversing the polarity with the speaker cables).

**passive line level crossovers are not active xovers for anyone reading this that might be confused.  They are used in between the preamp and the amps but have no power supply and use very, very few parts.


and now I am heading to bed.

Danny Richie

Line level
« Reply #39 on: 25 Jun 2004, 01:57 pm »
Quote
I actually meant to say it will save you $100's (as in hundreds of dollars)


Oh, you said it right the first time.

I meant to say that as well but left off the 's.

Quote
I'd imagine around $200 or so if Goertz-like air core inductors are used and nice caps etc.


Yep.

Quote
I never used any serious meassuring gear but some crossover design software a guy had over on AudioAsylum.com. I told him the curves, and the input impedence of my amps and he gave me back values and layouts for the passive line level crossovers**


Yep textbook style designs can be formulated that info.

It can also work out very good, and sound better than passive crossover designs in lots of ways.

Other things like baffle step compensation and physical driver alignment are usually not allowed for and cause other problems.

But if all things are taken into consideration the results can be very good.

Quote
It is true, you do have to buy another amp, but they don't have to be super powerful or really expensive (at least in my experience).


Actually with the passive components out of the signal path the speakers can more easily show off differences in amps, pre-amps, sources, etc.

Don't think it will give you a green light to skimp on quality elsewhere.

Quote
1)Since each amp only sees half the original signal, there is less IM Distortion and so each amp will actually sound cleaner b/c of this.


Well actually is eases the load on only one of the amps.

The amp driving the highs gets the relief.

In fact just remove the first two octaves from an amp and you relieve it of 60 to 80% of any load it might ever see.

It's the low frequencies that are really demanding and can really tax an amp.

The amp that you relieve of high frequency duty really sees no relief at all to speak of.

Quote
(plus whenever you can remove any inductors between the amps and the drivers you get better bass response and removing even the nicest caps will still get you better overall sound by far...


Very true, but sometimes those high value inductors are used to balance the output level of the lows to the highs, like in the Alpha LS design. Not only is a high inductor value needed but a high DCR as well.

And yes even the best caps are not as good as NO caps.

Quote
I never ran into a problem with phase as I maintained the same slopes as the stock xovers. If there ever was a phase problem, it could be instantly solved by just swapping the polarity on one of the drivers (now if your amps invert phase or something, then that is a different case but again, you can fix that by reversing the polarity with the speaker cables).


Reversing the phase 180 degrees only helps if it needs 180 degrees of phase shift, and in doing so did you shift it forward in time or back?

What if 40 degrees of phase shift is needed? Or maybe 100 degrees....

In a lot of designs the tweeter is mounted further forward than the woofer (physically) it then needs a time delay.

Get the idea?

Good points you have made. Thanks for bringing them to the discussion.

I wish guy guys could have heard that all digital crossover. It was the bomb.