[medium jim]

Here's what I wrote about the Maggie Mate's 4 years ago:

 02-29-2008

I recently purchased a pair of low hour Magnepan 1.6qr's and loved the upper bass, mids and highs, but they just didn't give me any love below 60hz or so...being that the most they would grow breasts would be a few months away to break in and even then is would only be around 5hz...I went out and got me a pair of B&W subs.

This combo was giving all the slam, soundstage and love I thought I could handle, but a couple of fine folks suggested I get a pair of Maggie Mates (search ebay) and I did...

They arrived today and I hooked them up and my word, it was like the claritin commercial...or like when you go to the eye dr and he says which is better, this or that....The clarity/imaging was so improved it wasn't even funny.

Maggie Mates are High Pass X/O's that this guy makes for whatever Maggie you have...in my case for 1.6's and he builds them to cut the bass off of the mains (maggies at around 60hz) as this retains all of the best qualities of the maggies and then allows you to dial in the subs at the correct level for near perfect integration. There is no smear and that is why they now sound so good and huge!

I have no affiliation with the seller and only wanted to pass along the good word about a guy who is making a great product that is a must have if you own Magnepan's and are using a one or two subs....


Jim

[Davey]

Jim,

Hi-passing the main speakers is certainly preferrable/mandatory.  However, the best place to do it is upstream of the amplifier not downstream.  This allows to high-pass the amplifier as well which reduces voltage clipping possibilities, provides direct connection between amplifier and load, etc, etc.

The Maggie-mates are simply a monster capacitor bank (approximately 500uF) inserted in series with the speakers.  He starts with some large value electrolytics, and then shunts them with two smaller value sets to create the "bank."
It's a horribly crude way to implement a high-pass filter, which can more easily be done (and much cheaper) with a much smaller value capacitor at the amplfier input. 

Also, the Maggie-mates are a "single" capacitor so only a first-order electrical slope is possible.  Line-level filters allow easier implementation of greater than first-order slopes......if necessary.
Magnepan transducers are an electro-mechanical system that rolls off at a second-order (12db/octave) rate at the bottom end.  6db/octave dipole cancellation bring the ultimate roll-off rate to third-order.  If a person is really lucky all those roll-off rates plus a first-order crossover created by Maggie-mates or something else will yield a nice 4th-order acoustic roll-off.  And then if you get REALLY lucky the low-pass characteristic of your sub-woofer has a complementary 4th-order roll-off at the same frequency.

If the stars magically align it's possible all this will work fine.  But, this is the real world. 

Sorry everybody to jack this thread away from the EPIK lovefest.  I will shut up now. 

Cheers,

Dave.

[medium jim]

Dave:

I talked to the guy way back when I bought them.  They have if I recall a 12db slope and while he didn't tell me exactly what is under the hood, is more than one capacitor. 

For me, they work and have no problem recommending them as I have here.  What I wrote about them 4.5 years ago still holds true today even with different Maggie's.

Jim

[josh358]

The opposed configuration has one more advantage that might not be considered by most.....the reduced vibration subjects the amplifier to less vibration.
Many years ago when I did repairs on amplifiers, a few were subwoofer amps that were (literally) shaken to pieces by the environment they were used in.  I believe many of the newer amps are more robustly constructed (a Keiga amp I recently saw looked much better) but the preferrable location for these amps is (still) located away from physical contact with the woofer enclosure.

Cheers,

Dave.

Not to mention that it can help avoid eviction and divorce . . .

[josh358]

But then I'm getting stereo bass, I would prefer to have three or four of these all in mono.

While a multiple sub strategy with a mono signal can give you smoother bass by cancelling some of the room modes, most seem to prefer stereo subs for music listening, because bass is so important to a sense of ambiance and space.

In truth, I'm not sure why this is, given that most recordings have mono bass. But it's what people say. Maybe it has to do with the slope of the low pass filter -- a sub will typically still be making a contribution to the sound up into the midbass or even lower midrange. Harmonic distortion could also play a role. Woofers make a lot of it, and it isn't going to be affected by the LPF.

[SteveFord]

I haven't lived in an apartment for a very long time but living below a guy with a sub cranked up is just horrible.
Bump bump thump bump bada bump thump.

[medium jim]

I haven't lived in an apartment for a very long time but living below a guy with a sub cranked up is just horrible.
Bump bump thump bump bada bump thump.

Steve:

I reside in a Townhouse that has common walls with two other units and one does just that, cranks his subwoofers to the point where that is exactly what you get...bump..bump....boom...baboom...thu mp.  There is no reasoning with the guy, I even offered to buy him some subdudes....ya know Christmas is coming up!

Josh:

While I agree that most rock and even jazz bass is recorded monaural, it still needs to be in the right place in the soundstage and the only way to acheive that is by stereo positioning of the subs and dedicated left/right feeds.   

Jim

[rw@cn]

Call the police or go to court and get a writ (I am not a lawyer). These are last resort actions but ....

[SteveFord]

The direct approach is always best.
Just run him over with your car.
Bump bump, it'll sound just like a subwoofer.

Sorry for the thread hijack, back to the Epik subwoofer.

[Rclark]

 
 Good walls here, and most of my listening is 70dB range. Bass from this sub seems to fill my room but not extend much past it, and it also does something (must be that inert cabinet)... nothing rattles when it's playing. Same levels with my ported sub I'd get some rattling of cd's or pictures.

 Also, I'm anticipating a soon return to Ncores, and as I said in my review of those, they are pure magic at low volume, to where listening in the 50dB range is totally satisfying, it is the wierdest thing I've ever experienced, it's as though 55dB avg is loud and the full range top to bottom is played fully.

 I don't anticipate having any neighbor issues while I am here. And haven't so far with the new sub. Looking forward to a swarm.

[medium jim]

Rclark:

70db is barely a whisper...55db is!  I would really be worried if you had rattling by how low (volume) you listen!  Or better yet, go out and buy a Radio Shack Digital SPL Meter to get more accurate readings than your Phone App meter.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TableOfSoundPressureLevels.htm

Jim

[jackman]

I'd like to hear from some of the resident experts, but I can say that my sealed and PR subs don't seem to rattle the room or knock pictures off the walls like my old ported subs used to do.  My ported experience was in a different system/different (smaller) room and, in fairness, I had no idea how that system measured.   It was primarily a HT setup and the two HSU ported subs really pumped out some serious air.  You could feel the air pressure change in the room and pictures would get knocked off the walls in other rooms when I played test tones or bass heavy (deep) tracks.  It was fun to mess with my wife but not really enjoyable from a musical perspective. 

My current subs are PR design, but my wife still complains when I turn up the volume (and bass level that goes along with high spl's), even though she is two floors above me.  At relatively high or even moderate SPL's, low frequencies can be disruptive to neighbors or even people within your house, regardless of your subwoofer's design or quality level (I understand this is not the case with OB but I prefer the sound and impact of non-OB bass).  My friend had two garbage can sized SVS subs in his HT and he could knock pictures off walls and cans off shelves without the subs breaking a sweat.  These subs in an apartment would probably not make you popular with your neighbors.    Even a small sub, like something in a HTIB) can be irritating to others in an apartment. 

I always get a kick out of these guys with mega-giant woofers in their cars, cranking super loud, low bass for the world to "enjoy".  One time the guy in front of me at a light was pumping out so much bass that my rear view mirror was moving with every BOOM of the music. 

Please note, I'm not sure this has anything to do with ported subs. Lots of great systems and well respected designers use ported or band pass subs.  I believe Geddes uses them and there is no doubt about his ability to create excellent sound, top to bottom in a room.  he is also a big proponent of multiple subs (four subs in a room) and has demonstrated this with great success. 

[TJHUB]

There are some weird comments in this thread, many of which defy physics. 

As for ported vs. sealed vs. PR, any can shake the foundation if powerful enough.  The ported designs just have more output with less power and even smaller drivers. 

I've owned an SVS PB13-Ultra, a Seaton Sound Submersive HP, and currently a pair of sealed 18" TC Sounds LMS Ultras with an almost under powered pair of Behringer EP4000's driving them.  The PB13U was a monster for HT and decent for music, the Submersive was a room flexor (especially when I tested a pair of them) but not good for music, and the LMS Ultras are the very best of both worlds performing nearly perfect for music and while not quite as monsterous as the Submersives for HT, they are much more impactful and visceral. 

I have a very large room that is also open to other sizable rooms.  As such, I need something relatively powerful to make HT fun.  I definitely have a wow factor, but I built the LMS's for music sound quality first.  HT is a far distant 2nd for importance to me.

The Epik's are of decent value, but I've never been overly impressed with them for music or HT.  I never got to hear any of the monsters they used to make though. 

[josh358]

I always get a kick out of these guys with mega-giant woofers in their cars, cranking super loud, low bass for the world to "enjoy".  One time the guy in front of me at a light was pumping out so much bass that my rear view mirror was moving with every BOOM of the music. 
proponent of multiple subs (four subs in a room) and has demonstrated this with great success.

There's a guy like that in the house across the street, and it can be a nightmare -- I've measured levels >90 dB inside our house when he's playing it.

If I were the vengeful type, I'd take comfort in the fact that he's going to need a hearing aid by age 30.

That being said, one possible solution to the neighbor disturbance problem is just to put a small sub near the listening seat. Not only will this permit lower SPL's (and a cheaper sub), the response aberrations from a woofer in that position are apparently minimum phase, meaning that you can EQ out any response aberrations.

[Rclark]

Hey TJ which Epik did you own? I'm listening to John (I blame my phone) Entwhistle (the Who) right now and this one is phenomenal for music.
 
 Of course, you can't please everyone. Even Rythmik has detractors.


@everyone else, yeah it's tough having loud neighbors. When I get a house, I'm heading to the country. The hell with it, I'll commute. One day I want a full balls to the wall room so I can listen at reference level with no shame.

[medium jim]

Hey TJ which Epik did you own? I'm listening to George Entwhistle (the Who) right now and this one is phenomenal for music.
 
 Of course, you can't please everyone. Even Rythmik has detractors.


@everyone else, yeah it's tough having loud neighbors. When I get a house, I'm heading to the country. The hell with it, I'll commute. One day I want a full balls to the wall room so I can listen at reference level with no shame.

I think you meant "John" Entwhistle...

Jim

[Davey]

There are some weird comments in this thread, many of which defy physics. 

The ported designs just have more output with less power and even smaller drivers.

Nah, there's no comments in this thread about defying the laws of physics. 

Cheers,

Dave.

[medium jim]

Nah, there's no comments in this thread about defying the laws of physics. 

Cheers,

Dave.

So my 1.6's would have grown Breasts?  I knew I should have kept them! 

Jim

[TJHUB]

Hey TJ which Epik did you own? I'm listening to George Entwhistle (the Who) right now and this one is phenomenal for music.
 
 Of course, you can't please everyone. Even Rythmik has detractors.

I never owned an Epik, but came close many times.  A friend had an Empire for a brief time, and a friend of his had a previous design (I can't remember the model).  I helped both guys EQ the subs.  They were ok with the Empire clearly sounding better than the other, but neither guy still owns the Epik's.

Don't misunderstand me, Epik makes damn good subs.  You can certainly do a lot worse.  It's just like anything in audio, something always sounds good until you hear something better.  That's been happening to me for years, and it will likely continue to happen.   

For the record, I don't like the dual opposed sub designs.  They don't EQ normally/easily (trust me, I tried for months with my Submersive HP).  I don't like drivers facing sideways firing into racks, furniture, or even worse, walls.  I found absolutely no advantages to the design, and they just don't sound right to me.  I realize that shouldn't be, but it is my experience.  I like a front facing sub that fires out into the room.  I've just had the most success with them.  Even the PB13U that was not known for music sound quality got pretty damn good with a lot of work. 

This brings up yet another point.  I'd NEVER listen to a sub with music that wasn't measured reasonably flat or EQ'd.  I've only seen one case where a sub (especially a single sub) that measured good enough to not EQ.  I can't listen to a sub with a frequency response that's all over the place.  For example: from your comments, I can gather that you have some peaks in the response.  Does that mean it doesn't sound "good?"  Of course not.  What it means is that it doesn't sound "right," and that's an issue for someone like me.  You just have to forgive that I'm beyond anal about all of this stuff, and it has taken me over 3 years to get my system where it is today.  I know what it takes to get subs performing well, and it's far beyond dropping it in the room, setting the x-over to a frequency, and firing it up.

As always...YMMV.   

[Rclark]

 

 Yeah I hope my review was clear in that I'm not using any treatment yet and no form of bass management yet. I would also like to provide measurements in the future.

 You know what though? I tried facing them driver forward and it sounds better in this room facing sideways. I truly don't have any complaints, in this room, and if they didn't play well with Maggie, I'd be looking at another sub. That's why I got this one used, to see for sure, but I don't feel like I'm lacking from the raw, base performance.

 We'll see how three or four more, some treatment, and some bass management change things.