[jarcher]

I've been running for about a year now a Marantz SR 5005 receiver as a preamp / processor (using external amplifications).  Perhaps it's prejudicial or snobbery, but can't help feeling with all that is crammed into modern receivers that the pre-amp section is weaker - and therefore ultimately the sound quality suffers.

So been considering lately actually taking a step backward & taking advantage of the many older pre-HDMI super high end preamp processors being sold second hand.  Yes, I'd be losing the convenience of HDMI switching and some other bells & whistles, but on the other hand I think gaining a lot on audio quality.

Anyone care to weigh in on this thought process or gone that route?

Also, looking for an older generation high end pre-amp / processor in the sub $1,000 category & have been considering the following.  If you have any thoughts on what would be the best choice or have any personal experience using these, would appreciate your thoughts:

1.  Krell Showcase (HTS out of my budget)
2.  Anthem AVM30
3.  Arcam AV8
4.  Arcam AVP700
5.  Rotel RSP-1098
6.  Any others of note in this price range?

Have not put B&K Reference 50 as supposedly these have a bad rap as being buggy.  If your experience is difference, would appreciate knowing that as they seem to be quite a good bargain.

Also have not included Mcormack MAP 1 as this is purely analog & would like something that does digital multi channel audio processing.

Thanks!

[Peter J]

You could add a Theta Casa Nova to the list, I lived with one for quite a while. High quality DACs and preamp section. I think you're right about the preamp section of a midline receiver being ho-hum at best.

 As an interim measure prior to an HDMI pre/pro I inserted this, which I've reccomended before;

http://www.dvdo.com/EDGE.aspx

It's still in the system even after after purchasing an Integra pre/pro with HDMI. It's a better scaler than what's in that or the Blu Ray player. I researched the crap out of the DVDO and have been delighted with it's performance. It targets a unique little sliver of the market. Google for lots of info.

[saisunil]

I have heard good things about Integra, I may be picking one from the Integra line as well ...

[yamaha626]

Well I've been down this road, so my opinion will have some bias. I've used a pioneer elite receiver as a preamp with nice results....not awesome but not bad. I used the receiver as a preamp because the amp section of my receiver was pretty weak to put it mildly but as a preamp, it worked quite nicely. Worked so well that I think pioneer decided to design their receivers as preamps first and then threw in the built-in amplification as a bonus. Honestly it was that poor as a receiver but that good as a preamp.
My receiver was a pioneer elite vsx-56txi and the deciding factor when I purchased it was that it was the only receiver that I could find that had a usb input...which was probably a version 1.0. FYI, I seem to recall that the Anthem uses the same pioneer motherboard.

Having said that, I've always wanted to buy a MAP1, but at the right price....I think it would be a killer unit with my omnidirectional speakers as I've always felt that there is way too much emphasis, and too little engineering regarding the center channel. Never understood why there is only 1 center channel. But with 6 really good omnidirectional speakers, who needs a center channel.

[jarcher]

Thanks for the advice Peter.  I'm sure w/ Theta's excellent DAC products they have a good pre / pro, but as the Casanova doesn't have analog bypass (much less for 7 channel), I think I'd have to go elsewhere. 

Should have mentioned that at the beginning : to take advantage of the newest DTS-HD & DD True HD, would want a pre-po w/ 7 channel analog inputs. That way I can use a blu ray player w/ 7 channel analog outputs and keep up w/ the latest standards as necessary.

7.1 is as far as I'm willing to go w/ this insanity!

DVDO switcher looks like a great product.  Just wish they had a product w/ half the inputs at half the price!  I really only use 4 sources max, and really mostly just two. W/ any luck could find one second hand. Seems like a great product for those w/ older receiver & pre / po's.

As for that Pioneer receiver - if in fact it's true that it's board is the same as an anthem, that sounds like a good deal.  Wonder what else / different anthem may do w/ that board to justify the higher price?

[jarcher]

I'm starting to narrow this down to a Krell Showcase or a Classe SSP 60.  Something tells me the Classe is probably the better product, and certainly more likely to be more musical / colored, but damn it, can't help liking Krell stuff for the wow / excitement factor, which may be better suited to home theater use. 

Just picked up a Showcase 7 amp for under market price on ebay, so this is sorta ticking the Krell box a bit more.  Only concern is that I'm going to aggressive / hi def w/ all Krell & Magnepan.  Can always turn down the high frequency w/ the EQ though if it gets to be too much (?).

[jarcher]

In case anyone's interested, have bought a Krell Showcase & hope to have it by the weekend.  Will be interesting to compare it to the Marantz SR 5005 I have.

I posted a similar thread to AVS forum & was interesting that the consensus from the few who responded was that "going backwards" this way & not having Audyessy or similar was a bad idea.  Somehow I keep thinking that I can get room correction down "good enough" manually w/ the Krell and otherwise enjoy hopefully better sound quality. 

Hopefully can be objective in the comparison & not get to swept away by the Krell's nicer cosmetics.

[srb]

Somehow I keep thinking that I can get room correction down "good enough" manually w/ the Krell and otherwise enjoy hopefully better sound quality.

Using electronic correction can only improve the sound at the position of measurement (provided that any digitally introduced artifacts don't sabotage the sound).  Treating the room acoustically can improve the sound at multiple listening positions instead of just one sweet spot.
 
Steve

[jarcher]

I really need to do more homework on room correction.  The sceptic in me doesn't believe an Audyssey type software can correct for all listening positions & work magic everywhere, despite whatever their website may say.

Think if you're serious it requires consulting with someone with an RTA who knows how to use it & interpret results, then trial & error w/ room treatments, always making adjustments by what pleases your ear.  I.e. as much "art" as science.  But guess that's a topic for another thread.

[squirrel_nut]

having made this journey myself.. buying used top end equipment because audiophiles must have the newest, latest, greatest. why not take advantage of their weakness?
i would recommend the following two pre-pro's:

EAD Ovation8 or Signature8  (might find re-branded under Legacy Audio as NexStep)
Proceed AVP2+6

excellent 2ch sound from both of these products. the most important factor to me.
EAD DACs are beyond reproach and still sound stellar today. look at dedicated EAD DACs and see how much they go for +10 years later.

i have an EAD Sig8 and the 12yo DAC sounds significantly better than any iteration of the latest 32bit Sabre DAC that i have heard.

surround sound has taken a back seat for me. i do occassionally use the EAD bypass function to pipe Blu-ray HD or whatever format is on the disk, through.

[jarcher]

Refreshing to hear from someone on the HT front that doesn't feel it's mandatory to run out & get whatever has the latest bells & whistles.

My application is probably going to be more like 75% HT & 25% music.  Have a separate system for serious 2 channel listening.

Though I have bought & waiting on a Krell Showcase, will keep your suggestions in mind if it doesn't work out. 

I've actually thought of buying some cheaper pre-pro's such as Anthem AVM20's and Rotel 1098's to do a shoot out as these last two go for less than $400 each, which means selling them on just to try them is at lower financial risk.

The Proceed is probably out of my budget ($1K tops) as the last Audiogon asking price seemed to be $1,500. 

The EAD Theatermaster Ovation 8 seems to be the better buy as last prices I saw were more around $900 (and more around my budget).  Only reluctance on this is it seemed to do 6 channel input / output tops, and I'd like to have 7.1 (what I'm currently using). At least from the photos - is that correct?  Seems like the mod folks in Iowa can do whatever you want with it though. 

[nickd]

Blue jean cables sells a nice HDMI switch box with a small remote for under $30. That opens the door for using older high end pre pros. I also owned a EAD sig8. It is a giant killer, just not user friendly and has some quirks. But sound quality SOTA!!

I have settled on a Pioneer Elite reciever for my 6.1 rig and a high end Stereo (using seperate components and speakers) in the same room. The Pioneer sounds good enough for TV and movies and my Stereo is way more fun for 2.0 music.

I was never happy with the limitations of the older pre pros and I tried a bunch of them. One thing the pre-pro / amplifier set up was better at, was concert DVD's. I do miss that. The Pioneer and behind the screen in-walls just cant quite make the same magic.

[jarcher]

That was actually going to be another thread I was going to open - unless it's already been addressed : good value HDMI switchers. That and XLR interconnect recommendations.

On you're settling w/ the Pioneer vs EAD Sig 8 + separate amplification, seems like the decision came down to usability issues vs sound quality?  Is that what you mean by "limitations"?

Guess I'm willing to deal w/ more hassles assuming the sound quality is improved.  Will know soon enough what sound better as a pre-pro: the newer Marantz or the older Krell Showcase.

[squirrel_nut]

my pre does 7.1 and reference cinema configurations. i believe the earliest units might have only been 5.1... not sure. as you pointed out, Noble will upgrade a lesser unit to whatever you need.
if you are targeting 75% surround, thats a bit off the mark for EAD. i believe their best circuitry is through 2ch. i never had the quality of surrounds that matched my front end and have since dumped the surrounds all together. using 3ch for Blu-ray, which the EAD supports fully as well.

[jarcher]

Allright folks, in case anyone out there is a cheap-skate like me & interested in older generation "super-high end" home theater processors, here's the collective wisdom I've received thus far. 

I've purposefully excluded the more "mass market" brands such as Sony, Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, and even in mid market processors from Rotel & Arcam etc, though perhaps I shouldn't have.  The way I feel, if you want one of these you should just buy new, "b" stock, or refurb. 

My assumption & general requirements as follows:

1) Price has to be below $1,000.

2) A "super-high end" brand like Anthem, Classe, B&K, Krell, Lexicon, Meridian, Proceed, EAD, Theta (in no particular order of preference) when it comes down to the preamp, op-amp, and possibly DAC sections, is going to sound better than the even modern mass market efforts.

3) Buying these at a quarter to a tenth of the cost off of new is a good investment vs a newer mass market unit, of course assuming that you can do w/ out the extra features set.

4) The unit must have 7.1 input - preferably kept in the analog domain - to support DTS-HD & DD-TrueHD - that these processors rarely seem to have the DSPs to decode. 

5) Balanced 7.1 outputs for me is a must, but optional for others.

Some input I've been getting:

1) The inability of almost all of these units to do on board automated room correction is a major limitation for home theater.  Others have said that automated room correction works out 50/50.  So no overwhelming consensus on the merit / need for ARC.  Of the ARC out there, Audyssey seems to get the #1 nod, Anthem's ARC #2, all other far behind.

2) Classe & B&K units can sound good & smooth, but have either had quality control issues or been buggy.  Buy w/ caution.

3) My conclusion on bang-for-the-buck goes as follows:

#1 - Anthem AVM20v2.  Basically gives you the SQ you can expect from the later AVM series, but w/ less of the feature set & connectivity.  Can be had for $400 or less.

#2 - A lot of the other ones seems to run somewhat neck & neck.  E.g. Classe SSP60 & Krell Showcase, EAD Ovation / Signature 8 depending on whether you want smoother more euphonic sound (Classe) vs something more "dynamic" (Krell).  Have not read up enough on the EAD, but they do have good buzz.  These all seem to go for around $900.

#3 - PERHAPS - yet to be confirmed - an underdog maybe the previous generation Integra (high end Onkyo) processors, which also have the advantage of having HDMI & Audyssey, etc.  E.g. DTC 9.8 & 9.9.  I've seen DTC 9.8's for asking prices of $500.

On the other hand, I've seen an Anthem D1 go for as little as $660 on Ebay - which was probably the best deal of all - particularly as you can add the ARC unit to it.  But there are always rare deals that break the average out there.

So - for me will try out the Krell Showcase when it arrives vs the Marantz SR5005, perhaps get an Anthem AVM20 and/or an Integra DTC 9.8, and see which ones prevails. And keep my eye out for another Anthem D1 auction in the mean time.  Keep tuned.

Meanwhile, any Integra DTC 9.8 / 9.9 owners or those who've heard them, your comments would be welcome!

[wushuliu]

Surprised no one has mentioned the Sherwood 972 with Trinnov processing that Accessories4Less has been selling at the blowout price of $600 (originally priced at $1800). The reviews were stellar at the original price, making it a steal now. Not much talk of it here but there are threads over at hometheatershack.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/SHERR972/SHERWOOD-R-972-Newcastle-7.1-A/V-Surround-Receiver-TrueHD-DTS-HD/1.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-receivers-processors-amps/55264-i-got-new-toy-sherwood-newcastle-r972.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/receivers/receivers-reviews/sherwood-newcastle-r-972-av-receiver-with-trinnov.html

[jarcher]

Interesting - I was getting ready to dismiss the Sherwood 972 until I came across the stereophile review:

http://www.stereophile.com/musicintheround/music_in_the_round_42/index.html

Where he states:  With analog or digital sources, it was clearly a step up from the Integra DTC-9.8, which it displaced.

Very high praise indeed for a receiver.....

To bad it doesn't have balanced outputs.

[Phil A]

I'd avoid the Proceed in any case.  I owned an AVP at one point (along with their amps).  Very nice sounding and very flexible.  However, that being said, there are posts all over about them not being supported for service at this point if there are any issues.  They apparently refer customers to a few non-related audio repair places that might be able to help.  They stopped supporting them apparently years back.  I sold my Proceed PMDT and probably about a week after my buyer got it (and it was shipped CA from the east coast), Proceed announced its discontinuance (I had no idea of the date when I sold it but knew it likely was going to happen at some point).  To pay $1k for something that has a possibility of being a door stop is a gamble. 

[ctviggen]

I'd avoid the Proceed in any case.  I owned an AVP at one point (along with their amps).  Very nice sounding and very flexible.  However, that being said, there are posts all over about them not being supported for service at this point if there are any issues.  They apparently refer customers to a few non-related audio repair places that might be able to help.  They stopped supporting them apparently years back.  I sold my Proceed PMDT and probably about a week after my buyer got it (and it was shipped CA from the east coast), Proceed announced its discontinuance (I had no idea of the date when I sold it but knew it likely was going to happen at some point).  To pay $1k for something that has a possibility of being a door stop is a gamble.

I love my Proceed AVP, but Proceed hasn't been a company in years, so getting them repaired is suspect.  Also, Proceed doesn't offer HDMI or any of the newer formats. 

[ctviggen]

5) Balanced 7.1 outputs for me is a must, but optional for others.

Why 7.1 balanced?  I've given up on balanced, as too much stuff doesn't have it.  For instance, I use a Dodd tube-based, battery preamp, and it only uses unbalanced inputs and outputs.