12AX7s

JakeJ · « **Reply #80 on:** 24 Oct 2012, 03:42 am »

N'kay. I have a question about the GL tubes you used, Buddy. Are they NOS? Now let me clarify just a bit, my research tells me that Original NOS Gold Lion Tubes were produced by the Marconi-Osram Valve Company in England between 1957 and ~1980. Or are they new production GL tubes from the New Sensor Corp?

I ask because I, too, looked at that "tubebuilders" website and they claim "Original" but make no mention of NOS and I have a very hard time believing they were selling Original production run GL tubes for anything less than $100+ a pop. I mean really, considering that I see other NOS small signal tubes selling for (i.e. pinch waist 6DJ8 tubes sell for $200-250 each) prices I can't even dream of paying for I am very skeptical as to their origin.

I do have some old stock tubes and, frankly, cannot justify paying the prices they ask when I can get new production ones that I can only hear subtle differences between. Yes I will admit the NOS or old stock tubes typically last much longer but if I have to pay $250 for one compared to ~$25 (or less) for new production I'll settle for the new stuff and buy them as needed. I've yet to wear out a tube so what's the point? Unless one has very deep pockets and a far more discerning ear than I then it's just an exercise in futility.

SET Man · « **Reply #81 on:** 24 Oct 2012, 04:03 am »

Quote from: JakeJ on 24 Oct 2012, 03:42 am

N'kay. I have a question about the GL tubes you used, Buddy. ......

Hey!

Jake, see post #62 and the last half #75.

Yes, they are made in Russia and own by New Sensor.

Anyway, I know what you mean bout NOS. Wish I bought some 10 years ago and stash them up. Of course buying rare and pricey NOS doesn't mean it will sound good in your system

Take care,
Buddy

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #82 on:** 24 Oct 2012, 12:15 pm »

I'm sure the Tubebuilders GLs are current production, regardless of the term 'original'. Mine should arrive this week. Also got some Ei Elites as well!

JakeJ · « **Reply #83 on:** 24 Oct 2012, 01:41 pm »

Quote from: SET Man on 24 Oct 2012, 04:03 am

Of course buying rare and pricey NOS doesn't mean it will sound good in your system

Good point! My circa 1990's VAC gear was originally designed using the long discontinued Golden Dragon tubes. But I'm willing to guess that the current production GL or Psvanes are as good or better. If I could afford a pricey tube I would likely go for Psvanes than a lengthy and painful search for true NOS tubes. I am fortunate in that I have a small collection of the tubes my gear requires so If I suffer a failed or worn out tube then I can still enjoy my system.

It's all good.

medium jim · « **Reply #84 on:** 24 Oct 2012, 04:04 pm »

Jake:

In response to your post #80, to me it is not about the cost so much if NOS, but rather their overall performance and reliability. If I'm going to buy the best amp I can afford, then it only reasons to me to put in the best performing and sounding tubes too.

Early on in this thread I noted that modern mfg 12AX7/ECC83 tubes actually measure with less gain than NOS and that this is a factor in selecting NOS tubes for Modern Amps.

Since most of my tube gear is vintage or semi-vintage, NOS is a natural fit anyway.

Jim

Ericus Rex · « **Reply #85 on:** 24 Oct 2012, 07:54 pm »

I used to be anti-NOS due to their very high cost. But now, after years of experience and a box full of NOS treasures I've gotten for cheap over the years, I have to say that they usually are worth the added expense...even at Brent Jesse pricing. If I were comparing a $3,000 amp and a $3,300 amp and the $3,300 amp was noticeably better I wouldn't hesitate to buy that one. So why would I fret about putting $300 worth of NOS tubes in my $3,000 amp if it raises its performance? They certainly are riskier and you may lose some money but I've seen a lot of people pay a lot more than that for a comparatively smaller improvement in sound when they buy expensive cables or other tweaks. Now, I don't buy NOS power tubes at all. Those prices are far too ridiculous. But when it comes to 9-pinners and 6S*7s, NOS is the way to go. The new production isn't too far behind these days. I've got Pavanes in my 12AX7 phono board and will try the GL new production 12AX7s when they arrive. But there still is more magic in NOS.

Freo-1 · « **Reply #86 on:** 24 Oct 2012, 08:31 pm »

I think NOS 12AX7's are a better overall choice than any current production tubes. For example, used Sylvania 12AX7's are available for a reasonable price, still fairly plentiful, and compared to current tubes made, sound pretty good.

My fave 12AX7's are the Mullard CV 4004 box plates. I like them even better than my Telefunken smooth plates.

medium jim · « **Reply #87 on:** 24 Oct 2012, 09:14 pm »

ER:

The 9 pin tubes in general will have more effect on the tone than the Pentode/Output tubes usually. This doesn't mean that output tubes don't make a big difference as they do.

I looked at getting a full set of eight NOS Mullard EL34/6CA7's with production codes XF2 as an investment that will hopefully last me 10+ years. They are said to last 10k hours if you keep them properly biased. I felt that even at $1200.00 for the set, that it would/should be only about $120.00 a year.

I applied the same logic when I bought a quad of NOS driver tubes. While I really wanted CCA's, but couldn't justify the cost merely due to their scarcity.

I'm rewarded each time a listen to my main system.

Jim

adrianc · « **Reply #88 on:** 24 Oct 2012, 11:01 pm »

Quote from: Freo-1 on 24 Oct 2012, 08:31 pm

I think NOS 12AX7's are a better overall choice than any current production tubes. For example, used Sylvania 12AX7's are available for a reasonable price, still fairly plentiful, and compared to current tubes made, sound pretty good.

My fave 12AX7's are the Mullard CV 4004 box plates. I like them even better than my Telefunken smooth plates.

There are nine version of Mullard CV4004,to me,the best sounding one is the Big round getter,frost glass,top mica had more edges,a very powerful sounding tube,

SET Man · « **Reply #89 on:** 26 Oct 2012, 03:48 am »

Quote from: SteveFord on 20 Oct 2012, 03:04 pm

A comparison between the Russian Voshkod, Gold Lions and JJ Tesla ECC 803S tubes sounds in order.

How did the old Ei gold pins stack up?
I had some Ei regular pins and preferred the Sovtek LPS but the Ei may have been a bit long in the tooth.

Hey!

Well, Ei Gold Elite in my pre are 10+ years old so it wasn't a fair comparison. If you want to know... I still feel that my old Ei are still fuller sounding than those cyro'd Sovtek... those cyro's Sovtek just sound tinny to me. But I feel that the Chinese 12AX7Bs sound better than my old Ei... wonder how the a new set of Ei Gold Elite sound compare to those tube though.

Take care,
Buddy

SET Man · « **Reply #90 on:** 26 Oct 2012, 04:01 am »

Quote from: Ericus Rex on 24 Oct 2012, 12:15 pm

I'm sure the Tubebuilders GLs are current production, regardless of the term 'original'. Mine should arrive this week. Also got some Ei Elites as well!

Hey!

I see you got those Ei Elites and Gold Lion. Keep us posted on the how they sound.

BTW... did you have to go through registration on the Tubebuilders.com before you place the order? I tried to contact them twice about using PayPal but haven't heard back from them yet.

Let me know if you received OK from them.

As for NOS tubes. Well, if I had money to spend I would try some of them too. But since I don't have money right now I will stick to new production for now. And late some of them are getting pricey. Also, there is another pair of tube for my SET amps that I need to save money for, the KR Audio.

Take care,
Buddy

jhm731 · « **Reply #91 on:** 8 Nov 2012, 01:53 am »

Has anyone tried the Full Music 12AX7 or Psvane 12AX7-T?

Steve · « **Reply #92 on:** 8 Nov 2012, 03:45 am »

Quote from: medium jim on 8 Aug 2012, 08:31 pm

While there can differences in circuits and topologies, the 12AX7 is designed to be a 100mu gain tube and one would design their amp or preamp as such. While there will be variances, a quality tube will usually rise to the occasion.

And yes, I can safely generalize.

Jim

I have to also disagree with you Jim, and agree with others. Depending upon topology, and parts used,
I would not be so specific. Parts alone are many more in number than tubes.

For instance, many claim NOS is best, yet a new JJ E88cc can
be more accurate, and natural, than any variation of Amperex or other NOS brand tube. This
based on sophisticated listening testing, not just specs.
Of course, if one wishes a certain subjective "sound", that is another story.

I don't think you can safely generalize.

Cheers.

Steve · « **Reply #93 on:** 8 Nov 2012, 04:29 am »

Quote

Let me put it this way, a great tube will not be rendered inferior because of a ill designed circuit, may not sound as good as it could, but a lesser tube will only sound worse.

Again, I have to respectfully disagree. For instance, most post NOS tubes are superior when in fact they may not be. It depends upon the plate voltage, current, load lines, as each changes the harmonic structure, in any tube. Parts used, which are many more than the tubes used, also have their own characteristic sounds.

Most push NOS tubes, yet I can guarantee you that new JJ E88ccs are more accurate, "invisible" in linestage preamplifiers vs any NOS tube, both in sophisticated listening tests and spec wise. The JJ is some 18db lower in harmonic distortion than any other NOS 6922/E88cc/6DJ8, or 6SN7 tube in common cathode circuit. Have not tested 12ax7s but would not be surprised if a new tube might be superior to a NOS tube, depending upon the circuit/parts.

Cheers.

ps.

Quote

they were designed as a RF tube for TV sets, not audio.

As general information to the public, the difference between RF and audio is the internal inductance, low capacitance, transit time from cathode to plate etc. Otherwise a linear RF tube is just as good for audio as any other. Microphonics can be dealt with. There are some RF tubes that have high distortion due to their variable Mu. Of course those tubes are not appropriate for audio use.

SteveFord · « **Reply #94 on:** 7 Dec 2012, 01:59 am »

Earlier in this thread it was mentioned how you really can't test tubes in a vacuum (thank you, I'll be here until Friday night).
I have two systems that are pretty much identical (give or take) and JJ ECC803s tubes are way too hot in one Jolida JD9 phono stage but JJ 12AX7As are perfect in it.
The ECC803s work just fine in the other Jolida.
What's the main system difference? The line stage - one is a Sonic Frontiers and one is a deHavilland. The 12AX7s were required for the Sonic Frontiers but the UltraVerve is just fine with the ECC803s. Go figure.

JoshK · « **Reply #95 on:** 7 Dec 2012, 02:15 am »

I am going to have to side with Steve on this one as he actually might know something about tube design unlike a lot of armchair theorist arguing with him here.

SET Man · « **Reply #96 on:** 6 Mar 2013, 03:36 am »

Hey!

It had been awhile. Well, I cheaped out and got myself the Chinese 12AX7Bs for my phono stage back in the mid January.

The first few hours were horrible, almost unlistenable! The high was bright and splashy. So, I left them in while I was listening to CD. I think it was about 20hrs after that I started to listen to my phono again, and it was much better.

Well, I forgot to keep track of the hours on them, definitely close to 50hrs now. And I'm happy to report that the sound is much better. Pretty much what I remembered when mjosef/Martin bought his pair over. The bass is tight, high is open and detailed. The mid is very good but doesn't have that bloom like the much more expensive Gold Lion... but some will argue that the "B" is more neutral. I do have admit that I wouldn't mind a bit more bloom and slightly warmth mid. But what I have right now is not far from that and giving some more hours on them will likely mellowed out a bit more.

Also,I have 4 Herbie's dampers the Rx version. I tried them but didn't like the sound. Yes, I feel the bass was a bit tighter but it lack harmonic and body. The mid was more focused but that make the singer seem smaller and it look a bit of the sense of body and roundness away also. And overall sound seems more forward which I don't like ... not a big fan of forward sounding here. So, now what to do with these dampers?

Anyway, as for for the 12AX7B tubes. Not bad at all at least in my system. BTW... I bought a bunch of these so I can test them on my tester and weed out bad one, which I found just one. Now I have too many, if anyone interested in a quad or pairs cheap let me know.

Take care,
Buddy

Freo-1 · « **Reply #97 on:** 6 Mar 2013, 09:31 pm »

Quote from: Steve on 8 Nov 2012, 03:45 am

I have to also disagree with you Jim, and agree with others. Depending upon topology, and parts used,
I would not be so specific. Parts alone are many more in number than tubes.

For instance, many claim NOS is best, yet a new JJ E88cc can
be more accurate, and natural, than any variation of Amperex or other NOS brand tube. This
based on sophisticated listening testing, not just specs.
Of course, if one wishes a certain subjective "sound", that is another story.

I don't think you can safely generalize.

Cheers.

This is interesting. The 6DJ8 tube is open to debate as to it's suitability for use in audio. So, arguing that a 6DJ8 new production tube works better than NOS does not correlate to how current 12AX7's perfrom vs. NOS. They are a completely different tube from the word go.

I have not been all that impressed with the current production 12AX7's available. They (to me) do not sound as good as a properly tested and working NOS 12AX7. The certainly do not seem to last as long either. Now, there are a lot of used NOS tubes that have seen better days, and yes, would agree that a new current Sovtek 12AX7 LPS (as an example) would sound better that those used up NOS tubes. However, for example, if one has a Telefunken 12AX7 that tests and measures well, there is no contest in that case.

BTW, one of the best sounding 12AX7's is not a 12AX7. It's a 7058, and smokes most 12AX7's out there.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #98 on:** 7 Mar 2013, 12:52 am »

"Used up" NOS tubes, and NOS tubes that have seen better days are not New Old Stock tubes in my opinion. They are just somebody else's used tubes. I believe this is the real trouble with "NOS" 12AX7s,,,, there just aren't any left. 400 bucks can buy you the hopes and dreams of days gone by and the wonderful stories told, but probably not a real pair of good ol' day Telefunken unobtainium.

I prefer the Gold Lions. They sound good, they seem to last, and they are real. What more do you want? Buy them and support the factory that makes them so they can stay in business. Or would you rather Paypal some dude on e-Bay to get his used up tubes?

underdawg · « **Reply #99 on:** 7 Mar 2013, 12:57 am »

I agree most are used nos, heck back in the day I was buying everything for a dollar or less, and even with testing on several machines you get nos tests but really new unsed tubes? I dont think there are any left either.