Biamping new speakers

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abernardi

Biamping new speakers
« on: 5 Aug 2012, 08:34 am »
  Hi all, I think this is the right circle, but if not, please let me know.  I just purchased a pair of Avlar Prodigy speakers.  It's a long story, but the bottom line is that they're really hard to come by and are really spectacular.  It's a two way with a Focal woofer and an AMT that's inspired and acts very much like a Heil AMT.  But the crossover is at 500Hz.  The thing about the AMT is that it covers a huge frequency range and goes well past 24KHz, the highs are really airy and wide open.
  At the shop I was auditioning them with Macintosh gear and they sounded great.  Now that they're home, they're not doing so well and I could use some advice.  I'm currently driving them with a Virtue Sensation 901, battery powered, with a Dodd tube buffer.  And as my livingroom isn't a dedicated listening room, it isn't treated.  The furniture actually helps quite a bit, but between the low ceilings and the wood floor and the speakers being tuned slightly on the bright side, well the high end is beginning to get a little screechy and fatiguing. 
  I took my Sensation into the shop today and we hooked it up to a pair of Avlars there.  I'm happy to report that the Sensation held up very well compared to the Macs.  But I definitely noticed a thinning out in the upper mids and I could detect just a hint of the high frequency harshness I was hearing at home.  I was listening with one of the speaker designers, Paul, and he said the model we were listening to in the shop was slightly darker than the one I took home.
  We discussed adding another resistor to the crossovers to tame the ATM's some more, but in his opinion these speakers respond really well to biamping and an active crossover.
  So at this point, considering I can't do much with the room, this is what I'm thinking:  drive the low end with the Sensation, which is a Tripath based amp and get a good tube amp for the ATM.  I think the ATM needs something more on the mellow side of things and it has a very high sensitivity, 100db/1W, so I can get by with a low power amp.  And the active crossover will give me more flexibility to work with the room acoustics.
  Paul suggested a Marchand tube crossover - the XM26 - but we're talking a couple of grand with an amp on top of that.  I don't have that kind of $$ right now and frankly I've purchased almost my whole current kit, piece by piece from you guys here on AC and have learned a whole lot on the way to boot, so I want to keep going in that direction.
  I see there are quite a few tube amps listed in the trading post right now and I want to jump on all of them :drool: but I really don't know the different sound characteristics of a push/pull vs SET vs. SEP, 300b vs. 2A3 vs. EL84 and all the rest, so I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.  I'm not very handy with a soldering iron, but I'm not afraid to roll tubes, op amps, jumpers, etc.
  I might be able to throw an area rug on the floor, but that's about it.  Any thoughts?

smccull

Re: Biamping new speakers
« Reply #1 on: 6 Aug 2012, 02:53 am »
Adam,

These sound like pretty sweet speakers. Never heard of them. Will need to check them out. Anything with a crossover that low is going to be very coherent through the mids.

Tubes can definitely soften the sizzle. That's the reason I went towards tubes years ago. I am very sensitive to aggressive HF. I've owned EL84s, 2A3s, KT90s, 300Bs (currently) and many more. Push pull and SET. They all sound different and even within the tube types there are many, many topologies. I tend to prefer single ended designs because of the continuity and "rightness" through the spectrum. When they're humming there's something spooky about the artist(s) seemingly in the room. My favorites are the 300Bs and the 45s, but the latter are so low power that you have to find a really special speaker to make these hum.

Of the push pull variants, my favorite are the EL84s and the KT90s. I don't care as much for the EL34s and the KT88s, though there are a few nice designs out there. The Marantz 8b is a legend for a reason!

The most important thing is picking an amp that matches your speaker. I don't know the Avlars personally so I can't recommend any known matches. You might have a bit of trial and error to go through. Good luck in your journey!

Steve

Ericus Rex

Re: Biamping new speakers
« Reply #2 on: 6 Aug 2012, 11:30 am »
They sold you a model different from what you auditioned without informing you?  Sounds awfully sketchy!

Maybe you have a setup issue.  Perhaps the shop owner can come to your house and help you with speaker setup.

abernardi

Re: Biamping new speakers
« Reply #3 on: 7 Aug 2012, 07:11 am »
No, the last things these guys are is sketchy.  They didn't sell me different speakers, they were the ones I auditioned.  When I went back to the store w/my amp, they didn't have any more of my model there, so we used a different one.  And yes, I probably will have someone come out if I don't come up with my own solution.  I always like to try first, probably not the best idea.

ZLS

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Re: Biamping new speakers
« Reply #4 on: 7 Aug 2012, 04:04 pm »
    What tube is in the Dodd Buffer?

    A NOS tube will make a world of difference; adding body and weight to the sound. 

Ericus Rex

Re: Biamping new speakers
« Reply #5 on: 7 Aug 2012, 05:56 pm »
At 100db sensitivity, you probably would be able to get away with a teenie tiny tube amp, like what Doc Cilantro has listed (or similar):

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=108528.0


But, frankly, I wouldn't expect it to work any wonders on that tweeter.

Ericus Rex

Re: Biamping new speakers
« Reply #6 on: 8 Aug 2012, 12:07 am »

abernardi

Re: Biamping new speakers
« Reply #7 on: 8 Aug 2012, 05:04 am »
ZLS, I've been rolling a number of tubes.  I had an old Sovtek in there that was sounding the best on my other speakers, but not so great on these.  I tried the highly regarded Sylvania 3 mica 5751 and that was too bright for this set up.  Right now I'm a fairly common Sylvania JHS 12AX7 and that's the best one so far.  I intend to try the other ones I have as well.

Ericus, I've been looking into both of those as well as some others.  There are some sweet amps up for sale here right now  :drool:

Ericus Rex

Re: Biamping new speakers
« Reply #8 on: 8 Aug 2012, 11:48 am »
Yep.  There are some really great things for sale in the trading post right now.  Usually, that's only the case around tax time.    :lol:

mberrync

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Re: Biamping new speakers
« Reply #9 on: 13 Dec 2012, 02:17 pm »
abernardi,
I did not know if you had made any progress with your biamping problem.  I am looking at similar AMT drivers and would like to hear your current impressions.  I wanted to know if you had found a way to tame the highs yet at home?  I have a triamped system and use a 45 tube amp for 500hz on up.  You may want to look at the Hawthorne Audio Forum - Speaker Builders section for a discussion of the AMT similar to the driver you have.  You can see some of the amps used.  Mike