cd player

fos · « **on:** 1 Jun 2004, 10:59 pm »

g'day all

i have just tested a few (5) cd players in the local hifi shop and came home with marantz sa8260 to trial. out of the 5 tested, it seemed to have a good balance between power, speed etc. most of my music is rock so power/weight is a requirement.

at home connected to my gk1r, luxman 100W power and arron ATS3 speakers the player doesnt justify the $1900 price especially when tested against my current 13 year old pioneer pd5700. the marantz is a little faster but then i remember the pioneer cost me $260 in 1991!

so im now thinking that i must be trying to spend my money in the wrong place. and that maybe my speakers are having trouble resolving the output.

the luxman power amp is pretty good, warm even, but it cant drive 4R speakers like the dynaudio 52s.

any thoughts?

Rocket · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Jun 2004, 11:36 pm »

Hi Fos,

$1900au is a lot of money to spend on a cd player.

Is your old pioneer in good working order?

If it is why not considering upgrading the clock in it, there are many reclockers about which should do the job for you.

I have a pioneer pds 507 with a G&D clock (no longer available) and think it is almost as good as a stock perpetual technologies dac (stock) which costs about $2000au in oz.

You could try the tent clock, lc audio clocks etc.

regards

rod

fos · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Jun 2004, 11:46 pm »

g'day rocket

yes 1900 is a lot and its going back today.

the pioneer has just started to skip occasionally on some discs, i must say i have never cleaned the laser. which may well be the cause. i guess 13 years its probably time for a clean.

how do i clean a laser btw?

and i have been reading about clock upgrades in players but have seen little in actual detail, so could you describe the process a little it should be quite similar to my player?

oorrooo

rosconey · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Jun 2004, 11:57 pm »

find a toshiba-one with 24/196 on the units face.
you will be very surprised what 100$ au or so will buy

stvnharr · « **Reply #4 on:** 2 Jun 2004, 01:31 am »

Fos,
I have a Marantz 8260. I run it into my AKSA 55 Nirvana Plus's, into my own designed speakers. The music is quite good. I also use the 8260 for SACD. The 8260 is okay on cd, but once you've had SACD, you don't want to go back. Careful with your choices, don't expect ONE to give you magic.

SamL · « **Reply #5 on:** 2 Jun 2004, 02:17 am »

Too bad there's no Pioneer 668/868 in NZ or OZs. it will be a good player to mod.
http://www.dvdbase.cz/clanek.php3?clanekid=1114
Compare this to Pioneer 969
http://www.dvdbase.cz/clanek.php3?clanekid=1107

Sam

Aragorn · « **Reply #6 on:** 2 Jun 2004, 05:19 am »

Hello

Depending on what you like I have found that a JPS Digital pwr cord was a good thing for my Sony XA7ES. Also using a PowerPlant 300 for the preamp and CD was a big step forward, bringing the digital closer to belivability with that ease and effortlessness of high end stuff. Of course this is pricey but it does upgrade the pre- also. I will tell you if the GK-1 likes the PP300 after I have a listen (?this weekend).

Happy listening

jake3 · « **Reply #7 on:** 2 Jun 2004, 12:53 pm »

Bin it. Cut to the chase and buy some Audiovector speakers.
No point wanking around with a multichannel cd player if it cant even play dvds.
I bet your Aarons will fit in the wheelie bin too...

fos · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Jun 2004, 10:45 pm »

Quote from: stvnharr

Fos,
I have a Marantz 8260. I run it into my AKSA 55 Nirvana Plus's, into my own designed speakers. The music is quite good. I also use the 8260 for SACD. The 8260 is okay on cd, but once you've had SACD, you don't want to go back. Careful with your choices, don't expect ONE to give you magic.

gday stynharr,

the only sacd i have is pink floyds 30th aniversary dark side of the moon. i did test it on stereo mode only...does sacd still have advantages over cd in stereo only?

the marantz was the one player i tested in the shop that seemed to have sufficient weight and finese while remaining relaxing to listen to. when connected to my system it had the easy listening but just didnt lift as much as i expected. the shop setup was a $700 integrated nad amp and a set of large paradigm monitor standmount speakers. and i was impressed enough to take the player home even though its nearest rival was $900 cheaper.

the player has now gone back to the shop while i ponder whether its my speakers are just not able to decipher the differences?

Rocket · « **Reply #9 on:** 3 Jun 2004, 12:09 am »

Hi Fos,

Imho good quality cdps/dacs will provide your system with improvements. However, you will improve your system a lot more by replacing your luxman amp with an aksa or other comparable amp. Also the aaron speakers are okay but there are many better quality speakers you could consider (please don't take offence by my statement).

Hugh's aksonics at about $1000au for a completed speaker should be one to consider. I have a pair of war audio speakers built in perth and pat's designs are also excellent.

I have spent a lot of $$$ upgrading my system (i have a perpetual technologies p1a/p3a dac modified by modwright, retails for about $4000au) and though it is an excellent front end, more improvement can be obtained by replacing your amp and speakers.

I have provided a link to guido's website.

http://www.tentlabs.com/

best wishes

rocket

stvnharr · « **Reply #10 on:** 3 Jun 2004, 03:13 am »

FOS,
SACD is better than cd, period!! There is more information on the disc, and the tonal balance is more natural. However, unless you listen to classical music, the difference isn't really a WOW.
The whole multichannel thing is another world. Most SACD's are multichannel and that does often bring out the best. But a good multichannel music system is a big expense and tricky. HT is a lot less demanding as soundtracks depend on trickery rather than good music.
Of course that's just MO.

In my earlier post I did not state that I also have a BAT VKD5SE cd player, 6K USD new (I paid l a fair bit less awhile ago when pockets were too heavy). There is no better cd player, though there are others of equal quality.
Yet the difference 'tween the BAT and 8260 isn't much.
I have long felt that digital source differences are small. Cheap Asian stuff sounds okay, but may not be the most durable due to all the cheap parts. Expensive audiophile players are very durable, built like a tank. People think they sound a lot better 'cause they paid a whole lot of money for them. I'm no different, though I do admit that the difference is small.

The best bang for the buck is on the active, high signal level, side of the musical signal - i.e. amps and speakers.
Hugh's Aksa amps are near unbeatable AT ANY PRICE!!!

As for speakers, I am a firm believer in premium drivers for premium sound. Also, depends on the music one listens to.
Best way to premium sound with premium drivers is some form of DIY. Commercial speakers with premium drivers are outrageously priced.
Just remember that whenever you hear the word "value" used in terms of speakers, think of "compromise" instead.

I've gotten off track.
The Marantz 8260 is worth it as an SACD player. But if you are only looking for a cd player, and not interested in sacd (it's not real big in Australia), get a cd player, and use the money you save and get an amp kit from Hugh.

BTW, I've spent a long time in the stereo equipment game. Only twice have I been WOWED by insertion of one component into the music system. Hugh's amp is one. That's why I speak so highly of them!

DSK · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Jun 2004, 06:03 am »

It's not often that I read a post on an audio forum and agree with pretty much every point made. This is such a subjective hobby after all. However, this just happened reading Stvnharr's post above.

Too many people get caught up in the old "garbage in garbage out" philosophy. While it is of course true, even half decent modern CD players do a relatively good job. CD players can be improved with tweaks, power cords, power conditioning, external DACs, etc but the improvements are usually subtle when compared with improvements made further down the line. One might argue that ANY improvement is worthwhile and I don't disagree with this (I've done all these tweaks myself over the years). However, when funds are not unlimited, it becomes an exercise in determining where the most benefit can be returned for the dollar. Unless you have a very old and cheap CD player, or already have top notch amplification and speakers, then I would endorse stvnharr's suggestion that the CD player shouldn't be at the top of your upgrade list.

I also agree that, in general, SACD is better than CD. However, the difference between well recorded CD's and SACD's is not huge. A bit more refined, airy etc, but the difference between regular CD's is often just as great as the difference between CD's and SACD's, or even between various CD players. I certainly wouldn't go spending more on a CD/SACD player than what my speakers are worth. Cheap speakers are more than likely going to colour what you hear and prevent you from accurately hearing the relatively subtle differences between most decent CD players.

Unless you are using a $200 cheapo CD player, I would recommend starting your upgrade path at the speaker end and moving backward toward the source. Get the best sounding speakers you can afford ....these are your window to the music and will better reveal the subsequent changes you make to the system. Speakers will generally have the biggest bearing on the sound (measured and heard) so it makes sense to start here and put as much money here as you can. You can then select component upgrades that work well with the speakers and provide the type of sound you are after. You don't buy tyres first, then a car to match them. The tyres, regardless of how good, may not match the car .....same deal here.

The more auditioning you can do the better. It will give you a better idea of the typical performance level of different units in a given price range. Occasionally, you may come across something that sounds better to you but is also less expensive. When you do, trust your ears. Although you generally get what you pay for, sometimes dollars are added on for things other than sound quality ...eg. brand name, build quality, middlemen margins, consumer gouging etc.

Interestingly, almost every upgrade/tweak I have done in the last few years, has lowered the "cost price" of my system but raised its sonic performance significantly. Perhaps I'm becoming older and wiser ...finally

It takes more homework, but it can be done. You have already found the AKSA forum so you are well on the right track. I have extensive listening experience with the AKSA amps and pre-amps and can very honestly say that the GK-1 pre-amp competes with units up to 10 times its price or more, and the Nirvana Plus amps do too. The catch is that you have to be good with a soldering iron (or have a friend that is) and be able to get your head around the fact that such relatively inexpensive units can compete headon with the big names, regardless of price.

FWIW, my GK-1 replaced a US$3500 big US name tube pre-amp. Despite the tube pre-amp having been improved with NOS tubes, the GK-1 was better to an unbelievable degree. I'm now seriously considering replacing my US$4500 big name class A power amp (also rated Stereophile Class A), with two AKSA 55N+ amps bi-amped. Yes, my system value will drop again and I will lose more big name bragging rights, but I sit back with a grin from ear to ear as I enjoy the live performances in my lounge room.

Sorry if this sounds like a lecture, but it has taken me a long time to get to this point and if I can help anyone get there more quickly than I did, and to save money in the process, I will feel that the money I now know was spent in the wrong places won't have been a total waste

Good luck on your journey FOS!

Rocket · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Jun 2004, 12:49 pm »

Hi Fos,

Sounds like you are receiving some good advice.

If you need to replace your cdp due to laser problems consider buying a marantz cd4500. They are fairly inexpensive i bought one for $350au and use it as a transport for my pt gear.

Then buy an upgrade clock and it will outperform cdp's costing a lot more.

I already have an aksa 100 nirvana and can confirm what dsk has mentioned.

Good luck.

rocket

jake3 · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Jun 2004, 12:55 pm »

Stvnharr, Rocket, DSK, etc all offer excellent advice Fos. My only adjunct (I love that word) is that I think you should perhaps allocate a bit more towards new speakers than has been suggested.
I am biting my tongue here as I know that for many, many people $1000 is a lot of money (AUS) and they cant just go out and buy what they like.
However, Fos earns heaps of money and he if wants to enjoy his music, then he has to spend some bucks. And knowing Fos I dont think a grand is going to do it for him.
Bare in mind, the end result is "enjoyment of music". Too many people on Audiophile websites talk endlessly about CD players, speaker cables, tweeters, amps....blah, blah, blah. (Necessary evils I am sure.)
Surely we are all here because we love music? Isnt that why we build these spouse-defying monuments? (No offence meant to anyone)
As I said Fos, cut to the chase, throw your Aarons in the rosy, buy some speakers that SPEAK to you. Only then will you have the facility to determine whether or not your source is worthy. One step at a time, but dont make the first step in the wrong direction.

(...steps down from soapbox...)

Carlman · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Jun 2004, 02:58 pm »

I highly recommend you replace the Luxman with an AKSA (w/ Nirvana and Plus upgrades) and audition some speakers. In the end, you will be amazed at the new level of performance from your source.

I think the CDP you bought is awesome. It's hard to imagine it being in the same league as the BAT D5SE but if it is, wow. The D5 (non-se) is the best CD player I've ever heard. I just can't justify the cost, though. Even used they're around 2,k USD...

So, I'm building an audio PC since I know how to do that and I know it'll sound about as good... and have a few more features.

Anyway, you know where the weak spot is, attack it!

fos · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Jun 2004, 10:38 pm »

thankyou all, especially for the elaborations,

the speaker issue is one i started testing a couple months back with my lux power and 'old' (lets say redundant) lux pre amp, and there were some speakers on the market with a significant improvement in sound ie the australian built sonique floor stander and the paradigms. i didnt get to the stage of bringing a set home to compare with my arrons though.

i ended up spending less money and built a gk1r instead, and was very impressed by the increase in the room filling ability (depth) and bass.....this was the wow factor stvnharr is refering to. i had to go back to my old pre amp for a bit just to see that difference again, this time the wow was not there but was replaced with immense satisfaction at my leap of faith into the unknown.

dsk you recommended starting the upgrade path at the speaker end first....i would have thought it is easier to match speakers to the amps not the other way around?

the path im looking atm is

i have already inquired with hugh regarding the aksa100n+ availability, so i can complete my new set and offload my lux gear as a pair. speakers included im thinking.

i just happen to have a new set of vifa m18w0-09-08 woofers sitting in the shed!

btw something i have been pondering...do we do this music/sound thing because we desire to create something beautiful.....???

cheers to all.

oorrroo

DSK · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Jun 2004, 12:02 am »

Quote from: fos

dsk you recommended starting the upgrade path at the speaker end first....i would have thought it is easier to match speakers to the amps not the other way around?

"Easier" ....Yes, if you choose speakers that are a difficult load to drive.
"Preferable" - NO! As speakers have the single largest influence on the sound you hear from your system, why would you compromise the potential benefit here by choosing an amp first, then compromising your speaker choice to suit the amp?

Ideally, you will have listened to a range of amps and speakers before buying either. If possible, you will even have auditioned the preferred amp and speakers together. So, effectively you are buying the amp and speakers together. The point I am making is that the speaker should drive the final decision moreso than the amp as, assuming the amp and speakers are compatible, the speakers will provide the largest potential audible difference in most situations.

As always there are exceptions. If you were hell bent on getting a 0.5w SET amp and this was more important to you than speaker type, then this would certainly drive your speaker choice. Or, if you couldn't find an amp with sufficient power and acceptable performance to adequately drive your preferred inefficient speakers, then you might change your speaker choice in order to increase the selection of amps available to you. However, most speakers are a reasonable load, so most of us have the opportunity to get the best sounding speakers we can afford, thereby making the biggest single improvement to our system, then complement them with a preferred compatible amp from a reasonably large selection.

Hope that makes sense

I didn't realise you already had a GK-1 ...congratulations. Better speakers will certainly enable you to hear more of what it is capable of. Once you have bought your new speakers, the choice of amp will be driven by the speakers and the GK-1, in order to get the sound you are after.

You are on the upgrade merry-go-round ...there is no getting off now

Carlman · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Jun 2004, 12:30 am »

If you choose an amp that's capable of driving a wide variety of speakers and doesn't impart much of its own character, you still have a huge freedom of choice in speakers. It's just an amplification engine. Let the source and the speakers do their magic.

Luckily, the AKSA 100wN does that. I can't wait to hear the plus. If the Plus provides the last level of refinement by improving finesse/control then, I don't know what would best the AKSA 100wNP. It's got both sound quality and versatility in nirvana form.

Best of luck.

DSK · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Jun 2004, 12:55 am »

Hi Carlman,
What you say is true ....but ... until you have chosen your speakers, you do not know what sort of sensitivity/impedance they have and thus can't optimise your amp choice. For instance, if the speakers are an easy load, perhaps the 55N+ would be a better choice than the 100N+. But if they are a more difficult load, then the 100N+ would be more compatible.

It is difficult to make high powered amps sound as good as lower powered ones. So, if your speakers don't need huge power, why go higher power and put more output devices in the signal path than you need to?

And, even if you do need more power, it may be better to bi-amp with two smaller amps (eg. 2 x 55N+ instead of a single 100N+). You still have 100w+/channel, but there are only 2 output devices per channel for the critical mids/highs instead of 4 and you have the advantages of separate amps driving bass and mids/highs ....at a greater cost of course.

Rocket · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Jun 2004, 01:00 am »

Hi Fos,

Your getting some pretty good advice here.

Think long and hard which speakers you are going to purchase.
Hopefully i won't be burnt at the stake but a $1000au commercially designed/built speaker won't sound that great imo.

You should seriously consider the aksonics or another diy speaker if you can. They would be a brilliant speaker and would match the aksa 100/55, gk1 perfectly. As an alternative War audio here in perth have some great kits for you consider if you don't want to build the aksonics.

regards

rocket