Another HUM question

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invstbiker

Another HUM question
« on: 8 Jul 2012, 07:40 pm »
Hello,

Is there a device that can help reduce/eliminate hum at the speaker wire level?

Tried EVERYTHING else.

Thx in advance

steve

mgalusha

Re: Another HUM question
« Reply #1 on: 8 Jul 2012, 10:02 pm »
Steve,

I very much doubt you are getting hum induced into the speaker wires, you would almost have to run them parallel to an AC line cord and have sensitive speakers in order to induce enough voltage to be audible.

If you disconnect the inputs from the amp, does it still hum? If so, then the hum is almost certainly from the amp, if not, there is a high probability of a ground loop. If you have shorting plugs, use those on the input of the amp for testing, some amps are noisy with an open input.

Can you please list the equipment involved?

mike

*Scotty*

Re: Another HUM question
« Reply #2 on: 8 Jul 2012, 10:18 pm »
I might more cautionary than Mike about turning on or testing an amplifier without shorting plugs in place.
In some cases the amplifier will go into destructive oscillation if it is powered up with its inputs unterminated and open to RF injection.
Scotty

invstbiker

Re: Another HUM question
« Reply #3 on: 8 Jul 2012, 10:43 pm »
Mike/Scotty

Equipment involved:
Canary 306 300B amp
JBL 4345's
Deqx processsor/Macbook Pro
PS audio line conditioner

Here's what I have done from the bottom up:
1. Turned off every single circuit breaker for the house at the panel Except the dedicated line to the equipment.
2. RCA inputs on AMP with DEQX connected and without
3. Tried both 8 and 4 ohm taps on the amp
4. Lifted ground's with cheaters
5. Took the line conditioner in and out of the equation
6. Rolled tubes around, cleaned pins
7. Tried different cables, RCA and Power and speaker. All power/interconnects are perpendicular to each other where needed.
8. Read a bunch of threads on various sites on hum

In every instance, there is hum. Now dont get me wrong, when music is playing, I can't hear hum from my chair at 10 feet. I need to have my head 1 foot from the speakers to hear it. For the amount of money tied up in this equipment, I would think the background would be dead silent, but perhaps with a SET 300B amp and 106db efficient speakers this is as good as I can get it. I was thinking there is some gadget out there that I can run inline at the speaker wires that cures hum. Getting black backgrounds is not an easy task for this hobbyist.

thx-steve

*Scotty*

Re: Another HUM question
« Reply #4 on: 8 Jul 2012, 11:21 pm »
 Your Canary 306 has an 82dB Signal to Noise ratio and your JBL 4345 speakers are rated at least 98dB sensitivity across their entire range. If you test your amp the with shorting plugs in place on the inputs you may find that due to the combination of the amp's SNR  and the speakers sensitivity,that this is the amount of hum you have to deal with. If your speakers were 10 or 15dB less sensitive your hum would be reduced by the same amount.
Scotty

roscoeiii

Re: Another HUM question
« Reply #5 on: 8 Jul 2012, 11:42 pm »
Many otherwise very fine tube amps will exhibit some hum through speakers that are very efficient (forget the exact reasons why). And if you are only hearing it 1 ft from the speakers then you are doing pretty good IME.

sts9fan

Re: Another HUM question
« Reply #6 on: 9 Jul 2012, 01:01 am »
Tubes are noisy

richidoo

Re: Another HUM question
« Reply #7 on: 9 Jul 2012, 01:57 am »
Hum is common, but not a requirement of using tubes. It often takes some work, but you might be able to reduce the hum more. But the first thing you have to do is see if the hum is originating in your tube amp, like Mike suggested. If it is, then to reduce hum you need to mod or replace that amp.  A shorting plug is simply an RCA phono plug whose positive and negative terminals are connected together, aka the signal (+) is shorted to ground (-.)   You can make one with an old plastic midfi interconnect, as long as it fits tight and is clean. Cut off an RCA plug along with 4" of cable. Strip the ends of the cable 1/2" and twist or solder them together. You'll need two of these plugs to short the L and R inputs simultaneously. If it is integrated amp, set the input selector to the input that has the shorting plugs installed. This will make the amp as quiet as possible. Only the power cord and speaker cords are connected, no ICs connected at all as they can cause hum even if not selected. You could also try lifting the safety ground of the tube amp temporarily, using a ground buster adapter. This is for diagnostic only, to determine if your house circuit wiring might need some connections tightened. You must not run the amp without safety ground, no matter how good it sounds. Tube amps have high voltage DC inside, so you really need the safety ground to protect your life.

Hum is most often caused by either high impedance grounds (which should be low impedance grounds) or EMI.

A ground connection must be low resistance to work right. Resistance causes current to flow which is the cause of ground loop hum. Where there is supposed to be low resistance ground connections, like IC jacks, wall outlet/IEC inlet, tube sockets and pins, internal ground wiring faults, loose chassis ground screw, dirty contacts anywhere, can all be source of hum.

EMI is electromagnetic interference, usually stray magnetic fields from the power transformer, especially if the hum is 60Hz. AC power wires nearby signal wires inside the chassis, AC heaters, etc radiate noise that is picked up by the sensitive, high gain stages in the amp. These are design flaws and cannot usually be fixed easily. Low cost amps allow more noise to keep the cost down.  Time to upgrade. :)

If you find that the amp is quieter when input is shorted, then there is a ground loop with another component. Look for opportunities to reduce resistance on signal, power and tube pin connections by cleaning and tightening these. If the other components are on different electrical circuits and are quiet when moved to the same circuit/outlet as the amp then check the connections in the outlets that cause hum. These can come loose and make a high resistance ground that can cause hum.

If you can't find the cause of the ground loop, or find that it can't be easily fixed, then you can still fix it with gadgets, like you alluded to above.

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/iso_aud.html
Model CI-2RR  for the interconnects. These are supreme quality transformers that break the DC connection to eliminate the hum on the interconnect ground, but the AC signal still gets through nearly perfectly, with only 1B loss.

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/iso_vid.html
Use VRD-1FF if you have cable TV or FM radio antenna coming into the system.

http://www.b-p-t.com/
http://www.equitech.com/
To remove ground loop potential from your mains power, works especially nice on tube amps. These make a floating ground and other significant improvements in power quality. But heavy, expensive and the transformers usually make some mechanical hum.  :icon_lol:

invstbiker

Re: Another HUM question
« Reply #8 on: 9 Jul 2012, 05:09 am »
Had some friends over tonight. "After a few glasses of wine, please sit here, let's listen to some tunes. What do you hear, nothing playing" "We hear nothing",

and so we rotated with requests for two hours.

Comments were all good like "we could stay the night and listen to tunes"

So I guess, what I have for hum that I hear from 1 foot is acceptable based on this equipment. I am probably being to analytical about it.  I thank you all for your advice and comments as I know it takes time to post.  :beer: I'll keep it as is for the time being as now I'm out of time from the long weekend.... 8)