Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)

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zybar

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Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #20 on: 31 May 2004, 07:53 pm »
Thanks.

George

JoshK

Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #21 on: 31 May 2004, 10:35 pm »
I guess I should have qualified my statement.  If you use an EQ--and by the way, this understanding is read, not experienced--to overcome nulls, then it sucks up juice, if you use it to attenuate humps then it wouldn't.  I think most people use it both ways, which will suck up juice.

Rob Babcock

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Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #22 on: 31 May 2004, 10:42 pm »
Yes, you can knock down peaks, but boosting dips is usually counterproductive.  It takes a lot of power and often isn't possible.

zybar

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Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #23 on: 1 Jun 2004, 12:27 am »
I called Dr. EQ and Frank was kind enough to make a house call (thank you very much Frank).

Frank sat down and listened to my system and I knew he was hearing what my problem areas were (in relative terms - splashy highs, bass that wasn't as deep or impactful as it should be (no subs, just the 40's in 2 channel), and imaging that wasn't razor sharp).

We talked for a bit about what could be casuing this (speaker placement, room treatment, etc...) and then Frank put in his Behringer 8024 to do some RTA.  Well, as I have stated in the past, the numbers weren't pretty.  I had some big peaks and nulls.  Frank started playing specific tones and the speakers started making some not so happy sounds.  At first I thought something was broken, but Frank explained that the distortion we were hearing was most likely being caused by room placement.  He asked if the speakers and/or the listening position could be moved around.

Frank moved the speakers back towards the front corners.  I was very skeptical at first.  I thought speakers didn't like to be near room boundaries like that...Frank asked that I keep an open mind and to give a listen.  Well the 40's finally played deep bass with authority.  After running through the RTA program, it was clear that the 40's were producing a strong signal down to 20Hz (hmmm, maybe I won't need the Larger subs for 2 channel after all)!

Now that the bass was good, it was time to tackle the midrange and highs.  From taking more measurements, it was clear my sitting position was in a null for some midrange and high frequencies (at the new speaker position), so that got moved up.  Better, but still not good enough.  Next we tried changing some of the room treatments around.  Some small improvements, but still not there.  Finally, Frank decided to try mounting 3" foam strips on either side of the midrange/tweeter.  This really made a big impact in terms of reducing the reflections and cleaning up the sound.  A byproduct of that change, was that I now had to turn up the L-pads significantly to get things balanced (finally the tweaky nature of the 40's was paying off!).  More RTA tests showed that I was getting "pretty close" to a flat response.

Well, when we listened to the system after this couple of hours of moving things around it, it was a whole new ballgame.  For the first time I was truly getting great bass and good clarity (it was good before, but never this good).  As good as this was, it was much better when the EQ was engaged.  In order to engage the EQ for music, we ran the digital out of the transport into 8024.  From the 8024 we ran  the digital out to the digital in of my dac.  This way all EQ functions were in the digital, not analog domain.

Before today I thought EQ's were something that people in high end audio didn't use.  I also thought they could only mess up the sound, not make it better.

I COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG!!!   :oops:

By inserting an under $200 piece of gear + some patch cords, I was able to greatly improve the sound of my system.  EACH time we engaged the 8024, the sound was better!!  It didn't become clinical or less musical.  In fact, it was just the opposite.  By cleaning things up, I can hear more details than ever.  This allowed me to enjoy the music more than before.

This listening session with Frank was very humbling and enlightening.  I encourage others to think a little outside the box and try some different placements of their speakers and listening chair.  You also MUST TRY some form of room/speaker correction.  If you spend time properly positioning things, the amount of EQ that will need to be done should be relatively small, but significant.  This afternoon taught me that the EQ isn't a "cure all", instead it is yet another important tool to be used in getting the most from your system (like room treatments, power conditioning, etc...).

Other members here have been lucky enough to hear Frank's system and everybody who has heard it, says they were blown away.  After seeing and hearing what Frank did in 3 hours at my place, I can't wait till I get to visit.

Thanks again Frank for helping out and teaching me some very important lessons.

George

JoshK

Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #24 on: 1 Jun 2004, 01:12 am »
Great story.  I think many of us (my included!) have a lot to learn.  As a statistician by training, I truely beleive numbers don't lie, you sometimes just fail to understand and use them correctly.

There are many among us that are quite skeptical.  I think your story goes a long way to validate this issue.  I'd be interested in how much you had to tweak things (in the EQ realm).

It also supports my long belief that spending more money won't really get you to where you want to go.  (often times it'll get you further away).

zybar

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Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #25 on: 1 Jun 2004, 01:14 am »
Josh,

It truly was an eye opening experience.   :o   Frank honestly knows and understands acoutics better than anybody else I have ever talked with.

Frank, can you answer Josh's question about how much work the EQ was doing?

George

jgubman

Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #26 on: 1 Jun 2004, 05:52 pm »
I've been thinking about pulling the trigger on a behringer for my dual subs for awhile, might just have to check it out now.

The only model on audiogon is the 1124, is there a big difference btwn the 8024 and the 1124? Any reason why I should dish out the extra money to get the 8024  (or the new replacement) if it's only going to be used on my sub/LFE output?

George, how do you plan on hooking up the digital input? Are you only going to EQ your redbook source? How are you going to manage to eq the largers for HT and other sources?

zybar

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Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #27 on: 1 Jun 2004, 06:47 pm »
The big difference between the 1124 and 8024 is that the 8024 is also has RTA capabilities.

The digital input on my 2 channel setup is easy:

transport digital out -> digital in on 2496 -> 2496 digital out -> Electrocompaniet dac digital in -> anlog out on dac -> preamp

As for my HT setup...

I am thinking about what to do there.  For right now, I might not do anything for the L/R channels (which are powered by my 2 channels amps) and just continue to use the 1124 as a Parametric EQ for the dual Larger subs.  Since I am not as picky on HT, I could easily live with what I am getting right now.

George

jgubman

Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #28 on: 1 Jun 2004, 06:54 pm »
Gotcha, thanks. RTA would be a very valuable and necessary addition, so I guess I'll look around for an 8024. Sorry to keep bugging you, but what's the improvement btwn the 8024 and 2496 (I'm guessing by the name that it does upsampling/interpolation business?) other than the built-in digital input?

Also, why not just apply one EQ to the analog sub output and eq everything below 60hz? Are you going to do more full-range EQ'ing to your 2 channel rig?

zybar

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Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #29 on: 1 Jun 2004, 07:45 pm »
I am not positive of all the differences between the 8024 and 2496.  I picked up a 2496 on Audiogon yesterday at a good price so it was basically only a little more than a new 8024.

Yesterday when the 8024 was over, it was being used full range.

I think the way I will implement things is to do the RTA.  Address what I can with parametic eq functionality.  Rerun RTA and let the auto fix eq function do the rest.  I am sure I will want to adjust those results a bit as well.

George

jqp

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Re: Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #30 on: 1 Jun 2004, 10:12 pm »
Quote from: zybar
The really scary part of this is that I think the limiting factor on the subs is the fact that I have "only" 1 Crown K2 amp driving both subs. If each sub had its own amp, I am confident the Largers could go produce even more db's!! ...


How do you have your single Crown set up with the 2 subs?

zybar

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Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #31 on: 1 Jun 2004, 11:31 pm »
One channel to each sub.

I use jumpers to connect the two binding posts on each sub.

George

jqp

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Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #32 on: 3 Jun 2004, 03:51 am »
thanks - I will eventually get there....

covermye

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Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #33 on: 3 Jun 2004, 07:56 pm »
IIRC, the RTA abilities of the Behringer equipment in question are somewhat limited, particularly in resolution of the RTA.

I used TrueRTA and a radio shack meter (with typical radio shack correction values added to the TrueRTA program, obviously) and was amazed at the ease of use and resolution of the program.  It's relatively cheep and if you've got a computer and a calibrated mic, you've got a 1/24th octave RTA justa few clicks away.

sbcgroup1

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« Reply #34 on: 8 Jun 2004, 01:15 pm »
It's so funny that you're using Behringer stuff. Being a musician in my spare time and having my own studio, the Behringer stuff is really beginner grade gear and inexpensive. I would have never though of combining pro audio gear with home audio gear. Due to your satisfaction with their products, it kind of makes me wonder if I've been extremely overpaying for home audio stuff in comparison with the pro audio gear.

Speaking of cool pro audio gear, you know what will give you unbelievable low end slam that I've used on recordings and in guitar effects loops...the Peavey Kosmos! That would probably make HT crazy!!!!

-Ed

zybar

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Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #35 on: 8 Jun 2004, 01:38 pm »
Ed,

I am using a Crown K2 to power the subs.  While it is quite good in the bass department, it is lacking in many areas when compared to similarly priced "audiophile" amp.

George

sbcgroup1

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« Reply #36 on: 8 Jun 2004, 05:20 pm »
How so? In warmth and musicality? I would assume pro audio amps like the crowns and QSC's (which are considered "budget" products in pro audio by the way) would sound sterile. But then again, at sub frequencies, it probably wouldn't matter much.

We use the Crown Micro Techs in our PA rack.

-Ed

nathanm

Behringer Feedback Destroyer with Larger Subs = :-)
« Reply #37 on: 8 Jun 2004, 09:13 pm »
I have been pleased with the sound when I ran my QSC amp full range, although yes, perhaps a tad sterile sounding.  Still, the bass control and frequency extention makes up for it IMO.  Maybe it's that Class A vs. Class D\T thing.