[medium jim]

Final thought, not all tube amps are created equal, same for SS.  I will take a well designed and built tube amp over its counterpart SS amp.

Twitch, enjoy your system as well as I know you built it with much forethought.

Jim

[Freo-1]

I think TONEPUB did hit the nail on the head. I think you have to design your system backwards. The amplifier/speaker relationship has to be established first, before you start going upstream. Inefficient speakers and a less then adequate tube amp will not bring happiness. If you jump over to the SET amp circle guys, they are all in the very low power amps with very high efficiency speakers. This has been a problem throughout audio from the very beginning of days. Mismatched speakers and amps always leads to the very unhappy listener.

The speakers you are thinking about will need some power, so a SS or hybrid amp is going to be your best shot. If you want to sweeten the SS a bit, then the tube preamp is certainly in line.

Also, the old myth that all tubes is bad, is just that, a myth. If you want that, then you need to find different speakers, like something in the 92-93db/m/w range.

Wayner

 
Good post, Wayner.  Could not agree more.   
 
That’s more or less how I put both my HT and audio system together.  Find the speakers you want, and then get the required amplification to drive them.  Well designed amps sound great be they tube or solid state.  Personally, I like tubes at the source (be it digital or analog).  The solid state gear from Pass Labs and First Watt has made a lot of tube guys re-think the whole tube argument. 
 
I like both tubes and solid state.  As Wayner pointed out, getting the right amp to drive the speakers is the single most important aspect.

[Quiet Earth]

Yes, that was a good summarization Wayner. 

 You know, there are actually quite a few speakers available in the 92-93 dB range that work very well with low powered tube amps in a typical, modest sized living room. I wouldn't really call 92-93 very high efficiency speakers but I suppose that they might seem like they are if you are used to owning speakers in the mid 80s and ~4 ohms. It's all relative.

I have found that it's only when you go below 8 watts and/or set up your system in a large room that you need to provide a "very high efficiency" speaker for your amplifier. I would classify a very high efficiency speaker as being at least 98dB sensitive, and probably having a very flat (8 ohm?) impedance in tandem. Or maybe it is a speaker that is specifically built to work with a tube amplifier's power transfer characteristic.

[Quiet Earth]

I never understood the Nelson Pass infatuation.

All of the Pass Labs and Threshold stuff that I have listened to have been wimpy, mechanical, and sterile sounding. And all of that heat and power could never get tough load speakers to play louder than a decent 30 to 60 watt tube amp. What is the point of having all of those solid state watts if they don't do anything?

Maybe the First Watt stuff is not like this?    (I have not heard the FW products)

[medium jim]

Well after all this, I must be breaking all the rules....I'm driving speakers that are in the mid 80's eff with only 70watts per side of tube amplification, yet it is the best system I've ever cobbled together, go figure.   Sure I have a pair of subs that are relieving a lot of the load, but still.....

While there are general rules of thumb as pointed out by TONEPUB/Wayner....there is still the trial and error factor that sometime leads to interesting results. 

Okay, I can't get to concert levels of say 110db, but can get to the low 100's without strain.  I listen usually around the 90 to mid 90's anyway, which is very loud.

I guess the best answer to anyone asking which amp is to buy the speakers first and then when they're satisfied with that end of the equation, then to seek the best amp for them.  Even here I did it backwards, well sort of as I had a pair of Magnepan's and sold them and it was several years later that I got the 2.5's and my system again fell into place.   

Another thing to consider, there is no shortcuts with amplification and one should always get the best they can here as while a watt is a watt, not all watts were created equal!

Jim

[Quiet Earth]

70 watts is a lot of power Jim. You still driving Maggies?

[medium jim]

70 watts is a lot of power Jim. You still driving Maggies?

QE:

Yes, I'm still driving my Maggie's with the Marantz's.   Prior to the Maggie's (which are said to be 84db efficient), I had a pair of KEF 104/2's that were 87 db eff....both are 4 ohm.   The only thing I changed was the sub settings from 50 to 80hz. 

While the Marantz's are rated at 70 watts, in reality they're probably closer to 85.  The marvelous thing about over-built tube amps is that they have a lot of power in reserve for transient bursts and such. 

I do have well preserved mid 70's BGW 500D SS amp that is around 420 per side in 4ohm that I've been using for the last week.  It sounds decent and will take me through the dog days of summer.   It is about as good as my Bryston 4ST B sounded.   

Maybe I will experience a SET system with Hi-Eff speakers in my lifetime as you have and take it to that level.  A couple of my good friends have gone that route...the best is a DIY 2A3 SET system with a pair of Klipsch Horns.  The Klipsch's have completely redone X/O's to get some of the nasty out of the horns.

The other is a system built around a pair of AvantGarde Trio's with two Bass Horns...using a pair of Marantz 9's in Triode.   I still like my humble system and feel that it keeps up with theirs.  But I have a small room in comparison to theirs.   

Jim

[Quiet Earth]

Sounds nice Jim.

A big 70 watt tube amp like that can probably drive just about anything. Summer won't last forever! 

[medium jim]

Sounds nice Jim.

A big 70 watt tube amp like that can probably drive just about anything. Summer won't last forever!

Thanks....

The funny thing about our hobby or passion is that there is so many right ways, but it takes a lifetime to figure it all out, at least it did for me.  What is right for me will not be for most though and that is the real beauty of all of this.   

Jim

[Steve]

My question is how is one going to audition the speaker/amp combo accurately and honestly without an accurate/natural volume control??

Cheers.

[brooklyn]

Synergy is the most important aspect of any system.low sensitivity speakers like high power and big tube power amps generate alot of heat and they are expensive to re tube. i like tube power amplifiers and i am willing to put up with the extra heat and maintainence involved with them. i like tube preamplifiers that are fast and neutral.in my experience warm euphonic tube preamplifiers are sluggish when used with tube power amplifiers they rob detail and speed and bring too much warmth to the sound. when done right tubes are all about the midrange and that is where the music lives.I notice that some of you guys like to argue too much. we are all stereo fanatics here and if someone has a different opinion it is what it is so just let it go and act like a good neighbor. life is too short for petty disagreements....WCW III

agreed.

[Wayner]

Matching amp and speakers by their efficiencies, is a rule of thumb, not a blanket rule. Some amps simply handle loads better and a lower wattage amp with a mid-efficient speaker certainly can work.

I run my Dynaco A25XLs (91/db/m/w) with a 33 watt per channel amp of Franks with no problem, plays as loud as one would want in my smallish room.

The room is also another part of the equation. If you have a small room, you will not need lots of power, large room, lots of power. Another good rule of thumb is to get as much power per channel as possible, this takes the speaker's efficiency out of the equation, for the most part, but if you try to buy high powered tube amps, the bill will be very out of reach for many.

I also think that most of the SET guys are using horn speakers, which do have efficiencies in the 100s......., but those speakers combined with even a medium powered amp will almost certainly reveal a residual noise floor of the amp, that lesser efficient speakers would not reveal.

Wayner

[eclein]

My question is how is one going to audition the speaker/amp combo accurately and honestly without an accurate/natural volume control??

Cheers.

Its a bit of a crap shoot like anything else in audio when the bottom line is synergy. I wasn't able to audition any pieces of my setup and did everything loosely by the numbers to start. Then tried to always have options to improve or send back my choice just in case. Haven't had to so far-Knock on wood. How you listen, nearfield vs. a larger open seating position, room size all that comes into play. As always luck is involved but minimized if your thorough to begin with. I'm not a numbers, measuring kind of guy at all but this step required I be to a certain extent. After that step its been all by ear but I rarely buy something I can't send back or tweak to some extent.

 Hopefully that helps with your question....

[Steve]

Its a bit of a crap shoot like anything else in audio when the bottom line is synergy. I wasn't able to audition any pieces of my setup and did everything loosely by the numbers to start. Then tried to always have options to improve or send back my choice just in case. Haven't had to so far-Knock on wood. How you listen, nearfield vs. a larger open seating position, room size all that comes into play. As always luck is involved but minimized if your thorough to begin with. I'm not a numbers, measuring kind of guy at all but this step required I be to a certain extent. After that step its been all by ear but I rarely buy something I can't send back or tweak to some extent.

 Hopefully that helps with your question....

Yes it does as I agree it is a crap shoot. I meant volume control that is accurate via listening as well a specs (too much bass, too little bass due to resistance of the control), not necessarily measurements.

I believe a more important area to comment on is "synergy". Synergy varies, is not an absolute "value". In otherwards one may have some synergy and improve upon it with better matching of components, which we all do. As such I would think one should minimize artificial flavors by obtaining the best volume control one can find, at least to audition components.

Cheers.