Wave Strength, Caution

Mag · « **on:** 1 Jul 2012, 03:34 pm »

If a source unit sounds better the higher the wave strength, why not jack it up to 100%?

Because as you approach 100% you introduce wave distortion through the input, output connections. It sounds like a ripping sound through the speakers, can be difficult to discern from the music. This wave distortion can damage speakers.

Also playing higher sample rates puts more demand on equipment. At 48K sample rate my 3B SST2 right channel shuts down from heat at higher volume. I need to go to a bigger amp.

This also suggests that you need more durable speakers that can handle the heat from higher sample rates as it puts more demands on the speaker. In fact, I had a bookshelf speaker bass driver over heat and seize up from 48K sample music. This is without clipping the amp.

Of course if you play your music at a reasonable spl, there is no need to worry.

srb · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Jul 2012, 04:11 pm »

Quote from: Mag on 1 Jul 2012, 03:34 pm

Also playing higher sample rates puts more demand on equipment. At 48K sample rate my 3B SST2 right channel shuts down from heat at higher volume.

This also suggests that you need more durable speakers that can handle the heat from higher sample rates as it puts more demands on the speaker. In fact, I had a bookshelf speaker bass driver over heat and seize up from 48K sample music. This is without clipping the amp.

The difference between 44.1KHz and 48KHz sample rate is negligible. The difference is a very slight increase in upper end frequency response above 20KHz which is doubtful that it would have much effect on a tweeter let alone a bass driver.

I certainly haven't noticed any discernible increase in amplifier temperature from playing 24/192 files versus 16/44.1 files, even when playing very loudly.

Has anyone else noted this kind of behavior from their amplifiers and speakers?

Steve

Mag · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Jul 2012, 04:56 pm »

This usually happens when I play bass heavy rock music with lots of bass vibe.

alexone · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Jul 2012, 05:17 pm »

...never had any trouble playing different sample rates.
Mag, are you sure it is the sample rate that brings your amp/speaker down???

al.

BrysTony · « **Reply #4 on:** 1 Jul 2012, 05:20 pm »

The amplifiers and speakers only see analog. They don't know what the sample rate of the digital file was.

Tony

Mag · « **Reply #5 on:** 1 Jul 2012, 05:28 pm »

Quote from: alexone on 1 Jul 2012, 05:17 pm

...never had any trouble playing different sample rates.
Mag, are you sure it is the sample rate that brings your amp/speaker down???

al.

Well, it did shut down the other night on a JP song, which was at 44.1. Sustained heavy bass seems to do it. Prior to that though its been with 48k material. Again usually sustained heavy bass at higher than normal spl.

sfraser · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Jul 2012, 11:21 pm »

Quote from: Mag on 1 Jul 2012, 05:28 pm

Well, it did shut down the other night on a JP song, which was at 44.1. Sustained heavy bass seems to do it. Prior to that though its been with 48k material. Again usually sustained heavy bass at higher than normal spl.

Have you tried the same track/volume sampled at a lower bit rate?

PRELUDE · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Jul 2012, 11:33 pm »

Quote from: Mag on 1 Jul 2012, 04:56 pm

This usually happens when I play bass heavy rock music with lots of bass vibe.

Is this your Paradigm 100s that connected to 3B SST2?

Mag · « **Reply #8 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 12:55 am »

[quote
Have you tried the same track/volume sampled at a lower bit rate?
[/quote]

Don't understand the question? With JP, it was after a few hours of warm up time. Freewheel Burning, followed by a few songs off the Angel of Retribution album, Demonizer shut it down. Songs were good quality recordings.

I've never had it happen with any other 44.1 wave music yet. This is upsample with the BDA-1.

With 48k upsampled, I've shut it down with AC/DC- Let There Be Rock, Rush- Xanadu.
My bookshelf speaker seized with Porcupine Tree- Arriving Somewhere, dvd,dts track in 5 channel bypass mode on Yamaha receiver.

Mag · « **Reply #9 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 12:56 am »

Quote from:
Is this your Paradigm 100s that connected to 3B SST2?
[/quote

Yes, Paradigm Studio 100 v2 in stereo bypass mode.

*Scotty* · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 01:42 am »

Your Paradigm 100s are 3ohms at 100Hz, this is asking for a fair amount of current from your amp if you are really cranking it. A couple of questions come to mind. How hot is your room's temperature and how well ventilated is your amps location? You are either tripping a thermal protection circuit or a current limiting circuit.
It would be nice if you had the same material to playback with the two different sample rates being the only variable.
I think it is very unlikely that a change in sample rate alone is causing this to happen.
Scotty

PRELUDE · « **Reply #11 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 02:22 am »

I do not think sample rate has anything to do with this and most likey Scotty is right.
When I had the studio 100s here by me they were even lower 2.6ohms at 100Hz and number of good amps could not play it nicely.I did try it with Luxman,Adcom and the 4B SST and just could not be happy.Even with 7B SST, well I should say it could play it but on heavy bass material it just could not go that low.
I think you should try it with different speaker before anything else.The 3B is not a right amp for Paradigm studio 100 but they were very nice speakers for the price and I think they were better then the new one.
I would say run 2 active subs or get the 7B or change the speakers.

Mag · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 03:10 am »

Quote from: *Scotty* on 2 Jul 2012, 01:42 am

A couple of questions come to mind. How hot is your room's temperature and how well ventilated is your amps location? You are either tripping a thermal protection circuit or a current limiting circuit.
It would be nice if you had the same material to playback with the two different sample rates being the only variable.
I think it is very unlikely that a change in sample rate alone is causing this to happen.
Scotty

I don't have a thermometer but I estimate room temp. around 80 F. It gets warm in here with all the amps on. Wednesday, the day it shut down, was quite warm being that it was storming outside. I had the floor fan on at high speed, though the air flow to right side of amp is hampered by the faceplate. The green light turned yellow and there was no sound from the right speaker. After a few minutes with the music off, the light went back to green and I was good to go.

Let's see, I have Pulse in 48k an 44.1 and Led Zep- Song Remains the Same. Doubt if Pulse can shut it down, not bassy enough, but Led Zep might.

alexone · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 10:33 am »

Mag,

maybe a BIT could help instead of changing speakers and/or amps?? can't help myself but i still don't believe that it is a matter of different sample rates...

al.

sfraser · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 01:19 pm »

Quote from: Mag on 2 Jul 2012, 12:55 am

[quote
Have you tried the same track/volume sampled at a lower bit rate?

Don't understand the question? With JP, it was after a few hours of warm up time. Freewheel Burning, followed by a few songs off the Angel of Retribution album, Demonizer shut it down. Songs were good quality recordings.

I've never had it happen with any other 44.1 wave music yet. This is upsample with the BDA-1.

With 48k upsampled, I've shut it down with AC/DC- Let There Be Rock, Rush- Xanadu.
My bookshelf speaker seized with Porcupine Tree- Arriving Somewhere, dvd,dts track in 5 channel bypass mode on Yamaha receiver.

What I meant, was try the same offending song(s) at different sample rates 48k vs 44). But play them at the same volume.

Mag · « **Reply #15 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 05:14 pm »

[quote
What I meant, was try the same offending song(s) at different sample rates 48k vs 44). But play them at the same volume.
[/quote]

I only have the songs in those sample rates. These songs don't always shut down the unit, it's a combination of heavy bass songs prior to, unit having been on for hours and is already warm, and playback volume.

Typically when I'm in a rocking mood, spl levels are in the 95-100 db range. What is being missed here is that when it shuts down it's music of higher resolution than typical 44.1. The JP recording in 44.1 are from cds that most likely used the 20 bit recording process onto 16 bit cd. For a cd the resolution of the recording is very good.

I still maintain that it's the higher resolution material usually 48K dvd, sustained heavy bass, high spl level, that can generate enough heat to shut an amp down, without clipping the amp's power. 44.1 typically doesn't have the resolution in bass frequencies to generate the heat.

sfraser · « **Reply #16 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 06:21 pm »

Quote from: Mag on 2 Jul 2012, 05:14 pm

[quote
What I meant, was try the same offending song(s) at different sample rates 48k vs 44). But play them at the same volume.

I only have the songs in those sample rates. These songs don't always shut down the unit, it's a combination of heavy bass songs prior to, unit having been on for hours and is already warm, and playback volume.

Typically when I'm in a rocking mood, spl levels are in the 95-100 db range. What is being missed here is that when it shuts down it's music of higher resolution than typical 44.1. The JP recording in 44.1 are from cds that most likely used the 20 bit recording process onto 16 bit cd. For a cd the resolution of the recording is very good.

I still maintain that it's the higher resolution material usually 48K dvd, sustained heavy bass, high spl level, that can generate enough heat to shut an amp down, without clipping the amp's power. 44.1 typically doesn't have the resolution in bass frequencies to generate the heat.

Seen something similar, I used to have my PSB Stratus Goldi's powered by a pair of 4b's configured as mono blocks, located in custom cabinets. This config halved the speaker impedance seen by the amp. On warm evenings with the right material (The Eagles, hell freezes over DVD comes to mind) and the gain pumped up, one amp would always overheat and shut down. It was a combination of the above plus a liberal beer factor that I determined was the culprit . Funny I could never reproduce with out the beer factor

Mag · « **Reply #17 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 08:23 pm »

Quote from: srb on 1 Jul 2012, 04:11 pm

The difference between 44.1KHz and 48KHz sample rate is negligible.

I have to disagree with that statement. I can hear a distinct difference in overall resolution, particularly in bass frequencies. With the BDA-1, 48k gets upsampled to 192k, 44.1 to 176.4. This is where I believe the difference lies.

For software I'm using VLC media player, Hi-resolution soundcard in laptop. 48k 16 bit pcm soundtrack when available.

PRELUDE · « **Reply #18 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 09:02 pm »

Mag,
You said that this only happen to right channel.How about the left?If the left channel can play it,then problem cannot be the sample rate.
Any way can you give the name of the songs and the sample rates that cause this problem.I want to try it myself.
Just in case you want to blow up your breaker at home then try this album.

When I bought this CD I was playing loud to the point that sound was going in the basement and shake the washer machine.So I hope this is enough spl for you but I never had any problem.

Mag · « **Reply #19 on:** 2 Jul 2012, 10:06 pm »

Okay, you asked for it!

AC/DC- Live in Donnington dvd, pcm track. You gotta start at the beginning. By the time you get to Let There Be Rock your amp should be cooking.

Rush- Exit Stage Left, dvd, pcm track, Xanadu. Same here, play the songs that lead up to Xanadu.

Porcupine Tree- Arriving Somewhere not Here, will also give your amp a workout. Either pcm or dts track.

Thanks for recommendation, will get album along with a few others. Just getting back on my feet after being un-employed for 4 months. Still waiting for paycheck as I'm flat broke after paying property tax.