Khartago rocks.

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 6524 times.

proudx

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Khartago rocks.
« on: 29 May 2004, 09:09 pm »
I bought a Khartago to pair it up with my 150wpc AVR-4800.  this receiver amp truly produces 148wpc with all 5 speakers driven at the same time so it has a powerful power supply unlike 99% of receivers.  

My denon has a much wider and spreadout soundstage.  

This doesn't make any sense does it?  Could Denons best amps be that good or is it that the denon pre amp section feeding out to the khartago i destorying the magic the khartago is supposed to perform?

Maybe I should send it back and consider a higher end oddysee amp?

Or is my thinking about the preamp section of the denon right?  If so would replacing the denons preamp section with a oddysee pre amp make this khartago outperform the denons great amp section?

Marbles

Khartago rocks.
« Reply #1 on: 29 May 2004, 09:29 pm »
Just curious, what interconnect are you using to hook the Khartago up with?

Also many receivers save money by skimping on the pre-outs.  I have no idea if this is the case on the 4800 or not.

eico1

Khartago rocks.
« Reply #2 on: 29 May 2004, 09:30 pm »
Apparently for your purposes the receiver is all you need. By some music instead and enjoy it. Or maybe you need some $800 interconnects:)?

steve

Eduardo AAVM

Khartago rocks.
« Reply #3 on: 29 May 2004, 09:36 pm »
Tell us please how long you have let the Khartago to burn in ?

Relax and wait...

zybar

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 12087
  • Dutch and Dutch 8C's…yes they are that good!
Khartago rocks.
« Reply #4 on: 29 May 2004, 09:38 pm »
I own the Denon AVR-4800 and can honestly say that it produces good sound, not just good sound for a receiver.

I used the pre outs for a bit and thought it was a decent preamp (good enough for second system).

I wouldn't say it is world class, but I can see how it would be equal to or better than a $750 stereo amp.

BTW, when Stereophile reviewed the AVR-4800 they measured around 400 watts/channel in 2 channel mode before clipping!

Let your ears decide which you like and go with it.

George

Marbles

Khartago rocks.
« Reply #5 on: 29 May 2004, 09:40 pm »
Quote from: zybar


Let your ears decide which you like and go with it.

George


Great advice!!!

klaus@odyssey

Khartago rocks.
« Reply #6 on: 29 May 2004, 10:53 pm »
Well,  there's no way that the receiver's amp stage is superior to that of the Khartago.  Just no way,  even though it seems to be good.  i have many other customers with the Denon units,  and so far your opinion is an isolated one.  

A few thoughts here:

1.  make sure that the amp is on all the time.   As I told you on the phone,  let th amp settle in.  You only have it for 3-4 days,  give it a couple of weeks.  Break-in is crucial,  no matter what the ignorant or the old school engineers say.

2.  make sure that the amp is on all the time.  Don't turn it on,  listen to an hour and turn it off again.  that's also crucial,  no matter what the ignroant and the old school engineers say.

3.  Make sure that nothing is out of phase.

4.  Even if after a month or so you still happen to like the receiver better in your system for whatever reason,  just send it back.  Even though 9 out of 10 people might disagree (including me),  it's still your system,  time,  and money.

Late,

Klaus

zybar

  • Volunteer
  • Posts: 12087
  • Dutch and Dutch 8C's…yes they are that good!
Khartago rocks.
« Reply #7 on: 29 May 2004, 11:11 pm »
Klaus,

Why do you say there is no way?  

Have you directly compared the AVR-4800 to the Khartago (before you ask, I haven't)?  

The 4800 has received good reviews and has been consistently compared to amps costing in the $2K and up range (just like your amp).  It has a  lots of power (tests show is produced 462watts into 4 ohms and it can deliver 200+ into 5 channels at once into loads as low as 3.2 ohms).  That sounds like a well designed receiver to me.  

I am not trying to pick a fight, but instead point out that it is possible that the Denon is equal or better.  In no way does that mean your product isn't good, it just means that there are other equally good products out there (even from big manufacturers like Denon).

George

klaus@odyssey

Khartago rocks.
« Reply #8 on: 29 May 2004, 11:24 pm »
Yes,  I have listened to an AVR  Denon,  once in my own system,  and then on an install in Berkeley  (at the time of the HE 2003)  at a customer.

klaus@odyssey

Khartago rocks.
« Reply #9 on: 29 May 2004, 11:31 pm »
OK,  not sure about the model # of the amp that I've had,  though.  It was a Denon AVR  for around 2 k in retail,  and I ended up with a cheaper Pioneer for Av   only.

proudx

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Khartago is a Great Amp!
« Reply #10 on: 30 May 2004, 12:13 am »
The amp has been on for a week solid now.  I have not turned it off.   I am using Canare LFB5 Innerconnects.  I am not saying this is not a great amp.  I am almost certain it is a better amp than the Denon.  I just think something is causing it "maybe Breakin" to not perform better than the Denon.  could it be it needs a better pre amp than the AVR-4800?  I just expected the soundstage to widen out further than the denon not shrink inward.   Also the amp is not as quiet as the denon when turned up real loud which makes me think something is up with my power and the Denon just simply conditions these low freqs so I don' t hear them better than the Khartago although a lot of people agree conditioning power is not always a good thing.

denon power measurements
http://www.hometheatermag.com/receivers/39/index3.html

proudx

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
An Update
« Reply #11 on: 30 May 2004, 07:23 am »
The odyssey soundstage is wider than it was 4 days ago, explain that one to me!  It has really increased in width and I am not kidding either.   The Denon and the odyssey have the same width in soundstage now!  Technicaly speaking this makes no sense to me that the amplifier changes the characteristics of the soundstage based on breakin.

Both amps sound the same now to me.

And all of a sudden my extreme high volumn hum has gone away, do the transformers need time to break in as well?

Man I hope the khartago continues to improve like it just did.  I can't believe it.

Are there any engineers that give reasons why amplifiers sound better after break in?

rosconey

Khartago rocks.
« Reply #12 on: 30 May 2004, 09:14 am »
thats what i was telling you over at avs  :lol:
you  must have patience with odyssey products grasshopper  :mrgreen:

djbnh

Break In
« Reply #13 on: 30 May 2004, 11:44 am »
Amplifiers are not the only audio gear that need to be broken in. Speakers, ICs, power cords, preamps, CD players, phono cartridges, etc. ad naseum all need to be broken in. (Chris VenHaus sells an adaptor to help burn in power cords, see http://venhaus1.com/VH_Audio_Test.html; there are numerous cable cookers on the market, too.).

Klaus Bunge's Odyssey site also leads the consumer through levels of break in at http://www.odysseyaudio.com/setup_tweak.html.

In a more direct anser to your query, go to the Audiogon amplifier break in discussion @ http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1061931859&read&keyw&zzbreak+in. There's some interesting information there. I've excerpted part of the thread, as follows:

"08-26-03: Sean
Resistors shift value, diodes will alter their point of conduction, transistors will alter their point of conduction and their gain curves, the dielectric in capacitors are forming, etc... All of these things do this on an individual basis on their own schedule and the differences between new and "broken in" might seem quite small on their own. When all of these "shifts" are added up and combined though, both the measured and sonic results can be quite different for the entire circuit.

Just bare in mind that stressing any given component, whether it be due to amplitude of signal, thermal changes, etc.. will cause further shifting of value on some components. This can have a domino effect as the newer shifts in value can cause other circuitry to respond differently. As such, it is possible for a device to change even further ( measurably and sonically ) after you think that it is "fully broken in". This is especially true if you start running it harder or in a very different manner than what you used to.

In extreme cases, these "value shifts" for individual parts can be significant enough to cause the unit to operate erratically or not at all. The fact that components do shift in value is what causes them to "wear out" and need repair. I have even seen where a 6" piece of wire inside of a unit developed a resistance of appr 50 ohms. While i could not explain how this happened, it did. To be quite honest, this threw me for a loop for quite a bit of time too. The last thing that one would ever expect would be resistive wire in a low voltage / low current circuit, yet stuff like this happens.

Other than that, anybody that tells you that components don't break in or "settle" is either uneducated about the subject at hand and throwing out a guess at your expense ( IF you believe them ) or knows better and is blatantly lying to you. When it comes to subjects like this, you either know what you are talking about based on book smarts and education and / or first hand experience or you are talking out of the top of your hat. Given the fact that i've been making money by troubleshooting / repairing / modifying / designing electronic circuitry for 25 years now should give you some idea of where i'm coming from in terms of experience. Sean"

Hope the above helps gives you some areas in which to begin research on this topic.

djbnh

Break In, Part Deux
« Reply #14 on: 30 May 2004, 11:56 am »
A generic article at Soundstage http://www.soundstage.com/saxon12.htm discusses break in and how the writer did a disservice to fine equipment by critically discussing audio equipment prior to the equipment being properly broken in. I excerpted the following two paragraphs, but feel reading the entire article may have merit. [Please note bolded area, particularly the line, "Instead, impatience to impress caused disservice to both product and customers. Mea culpa."]:

"Clearly, I have spent years observing hi-fi convention in the breach. As all audiophiles know, new components, loudspeakers and cables benefit sonically from being used for a length of time, which is referred to as the "break-in" or "burn-in" period. A horse opera fan, I prefer to say "break-in" because it reminds me of "bronco breaking" and connotes a similar goal with equipment as with horses, i.e., making skittish beasts complaisant.

"Here at La Casa Saxon, the necessity of a break-in period has been overlooked in the rush to uncover the virtues of new equipment. The results have been predictably bad. For example, an extraordinarily refined and dynamic class A amplifier, on hand for over a year, continues to age and improve like fine wine. Unfortunately, I lugged the amp around the city while it was still immature (I didn’t know it, but that’s no excuse.) and its youthful thinness has never been forgotten among early auditioners, who are loathe to give it a second chance. Had I allowed the monoblocks the month or so they needed to fill-out to a ravishing fullness, this great amplifier would not now be a wallflower in Paradise. Furthermore, patience on my part would have provided listeners with an immediate glimpse of the pleasures which the amplifier now provides. Instead, impatience to impress caused disservice to both product and customers. Mea culpa."

eico1

Khartago rocks.
« Reply #15 on: 30 May 2004, 01:44 pm »
Your setup had hum issue, you were not happy with your new component. The hum goes away, you are now happy. Now everyone comes out praising the effects of break-in. Obviously it was divine intervention!

steve

djbnh

Break In Redux
« Reply #16 on: 30 May 2004, 03:55 pm »
The question from proudx  to the forum members was, "Are there any engineers that give reasons why amplifiers sound better after break in?" There were civil efforts to answer a forum member's request for information, which I think is in keeping with one of the reasons this forum exists.

Eduardo AAVM

Khartago rocks.
« Reply #17 on: 30 May 2004, 05:21 pm »
In a off topic post I want to tell you regarding burn-in periods that even musical instruments, violins in particular, need a "burn in period" if it's true what I heard time ago, a violin gets it's better point after 30 or 40 years... A combination af laquer and wood process.

Does anybody here knows more about it ?

proudx

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
amp opening up more, but doesn't seem to be a good match
« Reply #18 on: 1 Jun 2004, 02:00 pm »
I finally got around to hooking up my center channel on my Denon Amp.  I had to lower the Denon Amps center Channel 4db to match the Khartago in the front.  Seems to me that the 4800s amps maybe too powerfull to match well with the Khartago.  

Does anyone recommend an odysee amp that would give me 3 to 4db more power than the khartago is giving me to be a better match with the Denon?

AJS

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 34
Khartago rocks.
« Reply #19 on: 1 Feb 2006, 06:57 am »
I'm new here on the Odyssey forum. Hello all. :wave:

I can vouch for burn-in, and I've heard it happen many times with various components I've owned over the years.

One of the biggest improvements I heard was that of a brand-new Audible Illusions Modulus 3 pre. Out of the box it sounded horrible - I mean I wanted to know who the idiotic shills were that started all of the 'hype' about how great this unit sounded. Even spanking new, I thought it should have sounded better than it did. :x More glare than looking straight into the sun, no focus whatsoever, and the low end couldn't have whipped the sound of a $59. boombox.

I left it on 24/7 for a week playing various sources, and it wasn't getting a hell of a lot better. Another week and the same crappy sound until on the 16th day, when I came home I thought I heard something that resembled high-end sonics coming from the next room.

Well, I threw Muddy Water's "Electric Mud" LP on the 'table and there was Muddy Hisself - standing on my rug between the Apogee Stage's and about 2' behind them playing "Mannish Boy". "Now," I thought, "...THIS is what I payed for!"

Another good example is the Martin-Logan CLS IIa e-stats I had. An e-stat panel is actually just another form of capacitor. From first play until they burned in fully, you could hear the resonant frequency go down daily from the lower midrange to the lower bass where it disappeared, while the rest of the output 'snapped to' and became gorgeous. The overall output level also increased. This took a few days less than with the A.I. pre, but it occured nonetheless.

In this hobby, you learn patience.