Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers

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Freo-1

Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« on: 21 Jun 2012, 11:40 pm »
What are the pros and cons of Servo Subwoofers?  At first blush, they seem to have significantly better performance specifications than non Servo units.  Do not see any shortfalls with them, but see several significant advantages.

Danny Richie

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #1 on: 22 Jun 2012, 02:29 pm »
What are the pros and cons of Servo Subwoofers?  At first blush, they seem to have significantly better performance specifications than non Servo units.  Do not see any shortfalls with them, but see several significant advantages.

Like anything purpose built for a specific application, it may not beat everything in all categories.

I have been offering servo and non servo subs for some time now. The only advantage our non servo subs have is a lower cost.

If you look at many of the markets best non servo subs then what you see are many that offer higher SPL levels, bigger X-Max numbers, etc. Let's face it. It is not that hard to use a huge voice coil and throw a ton of power on a woofer to hit some big SPL numbers. I am just really not interested in that market and I really don't feel like our customers are either.

The latest patented servo technology developed by Brian Ding of Rythmik Audio is generations ahead of older servo technology. There is really nothing that compares to it. What this technology brings tot he table separates it greatly not only from other servo systems but greatly separates it from non servo subs. The ability to stop after a signal has ended can be up to ten times faster than other subs capable of play down into those same low ranges. This plus the ability to remain linear over its entire range and play to as low as the end user wants it to play sets it apart. It allows detail and resolution levels to greatly exceed anything else. It is really the only true audiophile sub. And this is something that I find my customers are interested in. 

richidoo

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #2 on: 22 Jun 2012, 03:17 pm »
Danny, does the servo effectively lower the system Q to get nice tight clean bass like a low Q driver, even though your paper servo drivers are high Q for OB use?  Thanks
Rich

Danny Richie

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #3 on: 22 Jun 2012, 07:04 pm »
Danny, does the servo effectively lower the system Q to get nice tight clean bass like a low Q driver, even though your paper servo drivers are high Q for OB use?  Thanks
Rich

When Brian Ding came by and demonstrated to me his servo technology the light bulb went off like flashing lights and sirens. I knew right away that this opened up new applications that had never before been available. The direct drive servo technology would be a game changer for open baffle applications.

Looking at low and high Q drivers in various applications highlights the real differences. Just have a look at the old Peerless SRW308 12" woofer. It was a low Q design. The woofer is known to offer tight and well controlled bass but at considerable expense.

Note that an optimal sealed box of .318 cubic feet is needed. This is a box just big enough for the woofer to fit into. This gets you the perfect .7 Qtc. But the woofer is only minus 3db down at 70Hz (yellow line). Not much of a sub woofer. And in free air it handles little power in the lower frequency ranges and can bottom out easily. Now Peerless made a matching PR that can be used with it in an over sized box that extends the lower range quite a bit but at the expense of sensitivity (blue line).



So for open baffle applications woofers are typically chosen or design to have a much higher Q to allow them to handle more power without needing the loading of an enclosure. The problem though is that in order for them to play down really low they typically have a heavy moving mass to get the Fs down into the lower ranges. This gives up sensitivity and goes in the opposite direction of what you are wanting to achieve by going to an open baffle woofer system to start with. The heavy moving mass means a lot of stored energy and long settling times. So diminished resolution levels...

The servo system takes control of the driver and makes corrections to amplifier output to maintain a flat response. So a high moving mass is not needed for it to play low. Lighter weight moving mass of the driver alone is an advantage. And our SW-12-16FR is on average about 1/3rd lighter than other drivers designed to play low in a free air application. This advantage also keeps sensitivity higher.

The the real difference is adding the servo control to stop the woofer after the signal has ended. It is like having a woofer with a Q or .1 but play to the rock bottom and in an open baffle. Nothing else really compares and there is no other servo controlled systems for open baffle applications. It stands a lone in performance and in being the only one of its kind.   
 

Marbles

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #4 on: 22 Jun 2012, 07:23 pm »
As a sealed subwoofer, it kicks some serious audiophile ass too!  :thumb:

Freo-1

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #5 on: 22 Jun 2012, 07:28 pm »
So, after reading the explanation on the Rythmik Audio Servo feedback system, not sure that I fully buy into the claimed improvement.  It seems to me that the current setup from Genesis would work just as well.  It would be difficult (I think) to measure the deltas between the two, and prove which is better.
 
It does look somewhat easier to measure the improvement from a servo unit over most no servo setups.

Danny Richie

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #6 on: 22 Jun 2012, 07:39 pm »
So, after reading the explanation on the Rythmik Audio Servo feedback system, not sure that I fully buy into the claimed improvement.  It seems to me that the current setup from Genesis would work just as well.  It would be difficult (I think) to measure the deltas between the two, and prove which is better.
 
It does look somewhat easier to measure the improvement from a servo unit over most no servo setups.

Brian explained to me how the older Genesis system worked and how his was different and better. I can confirm that it works and works really well.

What part of the information on the Rythmik site were you having a tough time with?

Freo-1

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #7 on: 22 Jun 2012, 08:03 pm »
The two feedback systems are not as different as claimed.  They both involve generating a signal based on driver movement which is fed back to the amp to control the woofer excursions.  The current accelerometers manufactured (as used in the current Genesis lineup) should be as quick to respond to the signal as the separate coil approach for direct servo.  The implication that the direct servo has no feedback is a bit misleading, as the signal from the coil is a form of feedback (which controls the woofer).  In other words, both approaches should be more than quick enough to do the job correctly, with no measured gain in actual perfromance from one approach to the other.
 
Again, my strong suspicion is that the two subs would sound more alike than different, and measurements would point to both designs having very low distortion. 

TRADERXFAN

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Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #8 on: 22 Jun 2012, 08:54 pm »
Anybody know about this?  --I thought there was something that the rythmiks did in regards to damping, that others wouldn't. For clean example,  if there was no signal , and another wave hit the sub, it would actively "resist" it as it tried to move the driver where it shouldn't be.

TRADERXFAN

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Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #9 on: 22 Jun 2012, 09:09 pm »
The two feedback systems are not as different as claimed.  They both involve generating a signal based on driver movement which is fed back to the amp to control the woofer excursions.  The current accelerometers manufactured (as used in the current Genesis lineup) should be as quick to respond to the signal as the separate coil approach for direct servo.  The implication that the direct servo has no feedback is a bit misleading, as the signal from the coil is a form of feedback (which controls the woofer).  In other words, both approaches should be more than quick enough to do the job correctly, with no measured gain in actual perfromance from one approach to the other.
 
Again, my strong suspicion is that the two subs would sound more alike than different, and measurements would point to both designs having very low distortion.
Just curious if you found the blurb on rythmik site where he draws contrast to  the difference in the way it gets the signal to the accelerometer?
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/servosurvey.html
 I really wouldn't know if what is said there is reasonable and persuasive, but he states the mechanics of the devices create a difference and that his solution, of course, is more optimal. 


If so, what did you disagree with?

Also, I am not reading where speed of information comes into the picture. yeah i see that little blurb at the end talking about response time now.

-update. found this and thought it was kind of cool to share... http://www.dimensionengineering.com/info/accelerometers
goes over different types, not sure what has been used in a non rythmik servo option, but more than just the piezo types are available. They do seem to be finicky devices.

HAL

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Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #10 on: 22 Jun 2012, 09:11 pm »
The Rythmik test box that has been at RMAF demonstrates the system with the servo on and off.  With the servo off, you can easily move the woofer with your hand.  With the servo on, it resists the external mechanical movements.   

richidoo

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #11 on: 22 Jun 2012, 09:32 pm »
Thanks Danny, I've been wondering about that for a long time.

Was there ever an impulse response published of servoed SW-12-16FR? I wonder how fast the servo is.

Will there be a Super-V at Capital Audio Festival this July? I still have never heard one!!!  :duh:
Thanks
Rich

HAL

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Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #12 on: 22 Jun 2012, 09:44 pm »
Rich,
If you live near SoMD, I have a pair of Super-V's.  This is the pair that was at RMAF 2009.



The picture was taken at my friends place once they were setup for listening.

persisting1

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #13 on: 22 Jun 2012, 09:59 pm »
HAL, I never get tired of that picture. 

HAL

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Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #14 on: 22 Jun 2012, 10:38 pm »
Thanks!  That was a fun time indeed!  :D

richidoo

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #15 on: 23 Jun 2012, 12:16 am »
I'm in Raleigh, but I get up your way to visit family now and then. I'll PM you next time... Thanks HAL

werd

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #16 on: 23 Jun 2012, 02:38 am »
It depends on how they are used. If you are looking to brute force your bass with no consideration for placement then I wouldn't servo. Just get a good sub with good porting and have at er. But if you can get the room placement down and your able to use the volume and phase coherently with your mains than servo is for you. Nothing wrong with brute forcing your sub frequencies but servos wont get around the flats and nulls like a good ported. I am relating servos with sealed enclosures also.


rythmik

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Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #17 on: 23 Jun 2012, 05:22 am »
Impulse is not the right tool to look at sound characteristic. It has a limit in analytical resolution. With our current state of the art, we already passed that limit.  You can look at it this way, impulse can be FFT (fast fourier transform) into frequency response. So impulse is related to frequency response (I am short of saying impulse response is frequency response because in my test tool, after you get a impulse response, you can then plot the full frequency response with impulse response).  Of course this is when the system is linear as described in textbook. In real world with nonlinear behaviour, impulse response of different signal strength will result in slight variation in frequency response. But interpretation of these results are not as simple.  What we need is something that goes beyond anything related to just frequency response, such as coherence (or consistency) and recovery from external disturbance...  and in short, complicated and unconventional method.   

The clarity and definition of the sound is from current portrait of small signals and large signals at the same time.

rythmik

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Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #18 on: 23 Jun 2012, 06:58 am »
The two feedback systems are not as different as claimed.  They both involve generating a signal based on driver movement which is fed back to the amp to control the woofer excursions.  The current accelerometers manufactured (as used in the current Genesis lineup) should be as quick to respond to the signal as the separate coil approach for direct servo.  The implication that the direct servo has no feedback is a bit misleading, as the signal from the coil is a form of feedback (which controls the woofer).  In other words, both approaches should be more than quick enough to do the job correctly, with no measured gain in actualperformancee from one approach to the other.

We never claim that we have no feedback. We have feedback, servo feedback.
Until you actually implement a servo system, you wouldn't realize how true the saying "the devil is in the detail" is.   I designed my first accelerometer-based servo system when I was in graduate school. Before that I have built at least more than 5 different types of amps, including one with variable bias power amp that reduces crossover distortion. At that time Nelson Pass was already well known for his own variable bias circuit and I thought I can built one without reading this patent. My design was indeed different from Nelson's. The reason why I didn't commercialize it?  I gave it to my brother and 2 times in 3 years, that amp fried the output stage transistors. Any common sense will tell you that is the design you should stay away unless you want to make yourself broke. So lesson one, robustness of a design is paramount.

What shocked me when I first brought up my first accelerometer-based servo sub was it took more than 5 seconds for the system to settle after I powered up my lab grade power supply. That thing went through a low frequency oscillation (I mean the woofer cone just go in and out at 1/2hz) for full 4 seconds. I repeated several times, on and off the power supply and it was the same thing. In contrast, in all of my early power amp building experience, the only oscillation that I needed to watch out was high frequency one (anyone who build their own amp knows what I mean) and now I have to adjust my mind to adapt phase margin analysis at high frequency to low frequency.  Then I began to dig into the spec of the accelerometers. There is a spec called low end frequency roll-off point. Then I found that there are accelerometers of 1-axis, 2-axis, and 3-axis. Then I found the accelerometers are built with a mass glued to piezo film and the piezo film is aresponsiveeponsive to pressure. 

Each of these features brings in a challenge to to a stable and robust design. First this low end frequency roll-off point is a result of this mass-spring struture. It is a 2nd order high pass filter. So at DC, the phase shift is 180 degrees. What is the phase margin?  zero. That is not the worst yet.  The signal from piezo film is so weak, it needs amplification, an active device with DC offset. You cannot feed that directly into amp without a decoupling cap. That set back the phase margin by another 90 degrees. So at DC, the phase shift is 270 degrees. Try make a system like that be stable.

Second is number of axis.  Most people think the voice coil makes piston like ideal stroke. But in reality, there can be lateral movement in particular at high excursion.  If the accelerometer picks up lateral movemnt and feed it back to the system, would it cancel the lateral movement?  No. It introduces unwanted signal and makes wrong adjustment. The accelerometer should ignore lateral cone movement which it cannot correct. What if the cone is in break-up mod?

Third, acceleromter does not respond to acceleration directly, instead it is through a spring-mass system with piezo film attached with a loading mass. One immediately notices our driver is also a spring-mass system. We are trying to address a problem created by it and in order solve it, we created another spring mass?  But a more immediate problem is if the housing can withstand the externale from extenal. If you google, there are tons of solution proposed for how to make the housing immune to external pressure. But solutions conflict with the requirement that the accelerometer needs to be light weight to be suitble for speakers.

Lastly, there are some comment that servo feedback signal has a lag. I always defend this for our servo system by saying that our sensing coil is at exactly the same location where the electromagnetic force takes place (that is, the driving coil) and there is no physical distance between the sensor and driver coil where the action takes place.  And after the sensing coil picks up the voice coil movement (it is not even cone), the signal travel at light speed and race back to the amplifier.  However, I cannot say that for accemerometer-based systems. Accelerometers cannot be placed with the voice coil and it has to go the the cone under the dust cover. It takes time for the wave to travel through the  voice coil former to the neck of cone and from cone into the location of accelerometer. That may be a distance of 1" or even 2".  Wave proprogation speed in former and cone?  Maybe 3000ft/sec. It will still take 30 micro second to response. That is definitely not negligible.

Now each of these problems mentioned above is where our system excels.  The phase shift of our system at DC is 90 degrees. There is no way our system will become unstable. Our sensing coil is a natural 1-axis sensor. It will ignore all lateral movement and ignore cone breakup. It will remain stable even if cone is detached from voice coil. lastly the sensor is directly responsive to velocity, not pressure.


Quote

Again, my strong suspicion is that the two subs would sound more alike than different, and measurements would point to both designs having very low distortion.

Well, our system has more microscopic dynamics. Our design has not changed from day 1 of our business. On the other hand, Velodyne has gradually reduced the feedback amount of accelerometer feedback signal, in part to cope with the problems that I mentioned above.  Their current design is already very different from their early day ULD-15 or HGS design.


Freo-1

Re: Pros and Cons of Servo Subwwofers
« Reply #19 on: 24 Jun 2012, 07:03 pm »
Thank you for responding.  I appreciate you taking time to explain the direct Servo approach, and it is indeed a excellent approach to subwoofer design.  My comparison description was (given the entire subwoofer as whole, with drivers, parts, cabinet, etc) between the current Genesis 928 Subwoofer approach, not the Velodyne.  I think the Genesis solution is more up to date (compared to Velodyne), and the deltas regarding servo response time would be negligible in the real world both sonically and measurement wise.  I also question the point made about excursion in the three dimensional plane.  It would seem both the accelerometer and direct servo approach would react in a very similar manner.
 
I have a lot of experience working with military fire control systems in my younger days, so I’m very familiar with servo systems, from analog computing devices to stable element platforms.  So yes, the devil is in the details.