[Bigfishhk]

Yes they would pair very nicely, and in addition to the excellent suggestions so far you could put B&K power amps in there as well, albeit somewhat more rare on the market than Adcom or Rotel et al, IMHO a step above them in SQ.

how would you rate B&K amp vs Hafler amps (and indeed Parasound)?
I am going to trawl through ebay etc and see what can be found.
thanks
Tom

[Letitroll98]

how would you rate B&K amp vs Hafler amps (and indeed Parasound)?
I am going to trawl through ebay etc and see what can be found.
thanks
Tom

The older the better with B&K, the early amps like the ST202 easily trounce Hafler, Parasound, or any of the popular midfi lines.  Their famous, or infamous, first product, the ST140 is way too underpowered for your needs, but the model that Van Alstine claims was stolen from him was used for many of those early products with higher outputs.  As the years went by the product line became more ergonomically friendly and nicer looking, as well as improved QC, but some say not as magically sounding as the earlier models.  But I think even the last Reference 200.2 is a darn fine amp.  Since the company is now defunct, you can find them used at advantageous prices.

[Bigfishhk]

The older the better with B&K, the early amps like the ST202 easily trounce Hafler, Parasound, or any of the popular midfi lines.  Their famous, or infamous, first product, the ST140 is way too underpowered for your needs, but the model that Van Alstine claims was stolen from him was used for many of those early products with higher outputs.  As the years went by the product line became more ergonomically friendly and nicer looking, as well as improved QC, but some say not as magically sounding as the earlier models.  But I think even the last Reference 200.2 is a darn fine amp.  Since the company is now defunct, you can find them used at advantageous prices.

thank you for those specifics.
is the age (and defunktness of the co) a concern if issues develop with B&K? I guess that's my slight concern about the older gear from out of business companies.

TOm

[bummrush]

It's most likely the Quinpu is a pretty decent for the price. Charisma audio is a good company owner Bernard is super

[Letitroll98]

thank you for those specifics.
is the age (and defunktness of the co) a concern if issues develop with B&K? I guess that's my slight concern about the older gear from out of business companies.

TOm

Well, I have a repairman I've been using for many years that can fix anything I can't, with vintage gear it's best to be handy or have someone around who is.  That being said I haven't even replaced a fuse on the B&K since it was repaired when I received it broken, as is, for free.  I think the repair was $100-150 or so to replace some caps, transistors, and calibrate the bias, so you could say that's what it cost me.  Exact replacement parts may be unavailable, so you may have to replace with equal value, but sometimes that can be an improvement.

I also agree with bummrush, the better Chinese companies have been putting out some fine products at bargain prices.  As I mentioned, high power amps and integrateds don't appear to be their go to product line, but it doesn't mean they can't do it.  I like the look of the Qinpu, and it got an okay review at 6 Moons, not glowing, but not bad.  Could be an option. 

[Ericus Rex]

I think you have to worry the most about out of business (or even out of production) solid state amps.  Transistors usually have very short production runs before the 'new and improved' version is out.  This can lead to limited supply just a few years after the amp was made.

Unless the preamp has IC's (chips also can have limited production lives) in the design you shouldn't have problems getting it fixed.

I've heard that Qinpu in my system.  It really is an overachiever.  No remote though.  Do a search in AC's trading post for Qinpu.  There was one for sale, though it was the model just below the 6 moons reviewed model, last year IIRC and it was well within your budget and has remote and tone controls (I think).  I've also heard that amp and it is also quite good for the dough.

[timind]

I think you have to worry the most about out of business (or even out of production) solid state amps.  Transistors usually have very short production runs before the 'new and improved' version is out.  This can lead to limited supply just a few years after the amp was made.

When I'm buying used, which is more and more the case, I don't worry about that at all. I figure I'll get a good deal at used price and can afford the risk.

And while I'm posting let me recommend the Harman Kardon PA 2200 or 2400 amps. I picked up a 2200 on ebay for $125 with shipping about a year ago just for fun. A great 100 watt amp.
I replaced the power supply caps, did some rewiring and swapped in some better binding posts. It could die tomorrow, but I'd bet it's around for years to come.

[Bigfishhk]

I think you have to worry the most about out of business (or even out of production) solid state amps.  Transistors usually have very short production runs before the 'new and improved' version is out.  This can lead to limited supply just a few years after the amp was made.

Unless the preamp has IC's (chips also can have limited production lives) in the design you shouldn't have problems getting it fixed.

I've heard that Qinpu in my system.  It really is an overachiever.  No remote though.  Do a search in AC's trading post for Qinpu.  There was one for sale, though it was the model just below the 6 moons reviewed model, last year IIRC and it was well within your budget and has remote and tone controls (I think).  I've also heard that amp and it is also quite good for the dough.

It does look interesting that qingpu amp. I don,t  think it has balance control though.
For sure the Kappa,s breathe well with big power though, with some owners saying minimum of 250 watts at 8ohms.
I am not sure I need that much esp as I listen low to medium volumes but nonetheless aiming for minimum 150 watts. I did use the kappa,s with a NAD c372 initially (150 watts) and it did not control the bass or sound very transparent. I also don,t think it was a great amp period.
Being that the kappa,s are set up in my bedroom currently, it will be convenient to get an integrated or receiver as far as setting up. I am still scouring eBay, AG etc and may still go with separates. Depends what I find. The comments have been a great guide.
Emotiva strike me as a great deal, slightly above my budget but close.
Vintage gear I am wary of as far as having problems.
The Rotel rb1080 at $400 strikes me as a good deal. Would it pair best with a Rotel pre such as rc1070?

[srb]

The Rotel rb1080 at $400 strikes me as a good deal. Would it pair best with a Rotel such as rc1070?

I think it's a good deal too, and I would grab it if you think you might want to go separates instead of an integrated.  Although some are into vintage equipment and don't mind reworking or re-capping them if needed, I personally would rather buy a 10 year old amplifier than a 30 year old amplifier.  I have owned the RB-1080 and it's certainly a decent amplifier with a good power supply and 200W/ch @ 8 ohm.

I would pair it with the active preamplifier of your choice.

Steve

[JLM]

Don't get hung up on simple power ratings.  Many mass market power ratings are for "empty" watts (better to look for a beefy power supply and higher wattage ratings at low impedances).  If you look carefully into the ratings you'll find XXX watts at 1,000 Hz at 8 ohms, which is great for a steady load on a test bench but in the "real" world of actual (reactive) speaker loads??

And keep in mind that 200 watts only sounds twice as loud as 20 watts.  OTOH better to have too much clean power than to blow a tweeter from pushing a smaller amp into distortion.

Try Harmon Kardon, looking into factory refirbs.  Half the price of retail with warrantee, good sound, beefy power supplies.

[Chris Adams]

NAD C356BEE. Has everything you asked for and a warranty.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/nad-c356bee-integrated-amplifier-with-warranty-and-free--4

[Mr645]

Pre amp and amp for $600 might be tough.  I would look for an older B&K pre amp, Ref 10 or one of their old stereo models.

Then for an amp, Carver, Parasound perhaps, B&K if you can find one in the budget. Even 2 channels rated at 75 watt should have plenty of power.

[srb]

NAD C356BEE. Has everything you asked for and a warranty.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/nad-c356bee-integrated-amplifier-with-warranty-and-free--4

Except that one of the things he asked for was "definitely not less than 100w at 8 ohms. Preferably higher."

The 150W/ch NAD 375BEE was the model previously discussed, but that one is $1099 rather than $599 for the 80W/ch NAD 356BEE.

http://www.spearitsound.com/product.cgi?group=70&product=2927

Steve

[Bigfishhk]

Don't get hung up on simple power ratings.  Many mass market power ratings are for "empty" watts (better to look for a beefy power supply and higher wattage ratings at low impedances).  If you look carefully into the ratings you'll find XXX watts at 1,000 Hz at 8 ohms, which is great for a steady load on a test bench but in the "real" world of actual (reactive) speaker loads??

Point taken. How do I assess the specs to make sure I am getting "beefy power supply and higher wattage ratings at low impedances" ?
ie I am looking for alot of good clean power as you say. Which and what numbers will indicate this to me? Excuse my relative ignorance in these matters, that's why I need to get clarification!

thanks
TOm

[Bigfishhk]

Except that one of the things he asked for was "definitely not less than 100w at 8 ohms. Preferably higher."

The 150W/ch NAD 375BEE was the model previously discussed, but that one is $1099 rather than $599 for the 80W/ch NAD 356BEE.
Steve

that's right re power..
RE NAD components, I bought a 5 year old c372 and the caps needed replacing shortly after I bought it. then the refurbished NAD cd player (6 months old) I had broke down. It was fixed under warranty. I'm not sold on NAD's manufacturing quality control these days or maybe just my bad luck.

[Bigfishhk]

Just checking one more thing..
I can run a sub if the amp has what is described as -
"one variable level pre-amp output"?

(in this case the ANthem 225 integrated amp. Not for the Kappa's for now, but when comes up for a good deal I want one for main system)
Thanks
Tom

[Chris Adams]

Except that one of the things he asked for was "definitely not less than 100w at 8 ohms. Preferably higher."

The 150W/ch NAD 375BEE was the model previously discussed, but that one is $1099 rather than $599 for the 80W/ch NAD 356BEE.

http://www.spearitsound.com/product.cgi?group=70&product=2927

Steve

My bad. 

[srb]

I can run a sub if the amp has what is described as - "one variable level pre-amp output"?

Yes, a preamp out or a variable line out would be the same thing - they are both controlled by the volume control which is what you need for the subwoofer, as opposed to a fixed line out or record line out.

As far as power output, some amplifiers do spec actual current output, but many do not.  If an amplifier can supply say between 65% to 100% more wattage when the impedance is halved, that, as well as operation down to 2 ohms, is often an indication of high current and robust power supply design.

A theoretically perfect power supply could "double down" and if its 8 ohm power rating was 200W, it could supply 400W @ 4 ohms and 800W @ 2 ohms.  Some exceptions to this rule of thumb might be

1.  Conservative ratings.  Bryston amplifier specs do not show doubling of power for halving of impedance load, but they do have robust power supplies.

2.  Amps like the NAD that spec the same RMS power for all impedances due to their particular output topology

3.  Transformer coupled outputs on amps like the McIntosh solid state that use output transformers with multiple taps for different impedance loads with the same power output.

Steve

[neobop]

Hi,
With your power requirements and price limitations maybe you should consider a used Onkyo amp. You can find used Onkyos that are dual mono, high current. I used to sell these, and B & K, Adcom, etc + high end stuff.  They might not have the finesse of Krell or Levinson, but will take you pretty far. Here's what I'm talking about:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Onkyo-Integra-M-Series-M-5030-Power-Amp-Amplifier-/150741074184?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item2318de4108

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Onkyo-M-504-Amplifier-/270998199088?pt=US_Home_Audio_Amplifiers_Preamps&hash=item3f18c05b30

M-504 165 w/ch @ 8 ohms  An amp like that Rotel should do you just fine.  I had an Adcom 555 for awhile in the '80s, it was pretty good but every batch seemed a little different.  I think those Onkyos are better and more relialable.  I suggest staying away from the big Haflers. They made one that was 250 wpc (H-500?).  It ran hot and seemed prone to failure.  Which Kappas do you have?  If you listen at med to low volume, maybe you need quality with decent power, rather than quantity. 

[JLM]

Point taken. How do I assess the specs to make sure I am getting "beefy power supply and higher wattage ratings at low impedances" ?
ie I am looking for alot of good clean power as you say. Which and what numbers will indicate this to me? Excuse my relative ignorance in these matters, that's why I need to get clarification!

thanks

TOm

In a nut shell: look for soft clipping allows for peaks (isn't that what music really is?), tubes soft clip, & the term "soft clipping" comes from NAD (they design with a 3 dB or 100% additional power cushion so their 100 wpc amp performs in the "real world" like a 200 wpc amp); look for amps that double their rated output into 4 ohms versus 8 ohms; look for non-"mass marketed" (big box" retialed brands (Harmon Kardon being an exception).