[sbcgroup1]

Anyone compared the RM40's w/FST tweeters against the SP Continuums?

-Ed

[zybar]

Very different presentation and both excellent (how about that for a wimpy political answer?).

Wait until my next visit to Horsehead's to give a more detailed answer.

George

[lonewolfny42]

(how about that for a wimpy political answer?).



George

George, I forgot....what office are you running for ? ? ?  

[zybar]

Mayor of Dumbassville.

 

[lonewolfny42]

Mayor of Dumbassville.

 

That's a nice town....good luck in the election, ya got my vote !!  

[John Casler]

Very different presentation and both excellent (how about that for a wimpy political answer?).

George

Actually (although I haven't heard the SPs) Georges answer is probably "very" accurate.

The presentation of the VMPS design "is" different than a typical cone/dome speaker.

I would suggest that one has to find out what they prefer in speaker performance in order to find what they want.

Most every speaker design is a trade off of compromises to acheive an end "sound".

Those trade offs are what combine to make the speaker what you want.

Those trade offs, when they approach the perfromance "edge", may not be for the average consumer.

With speaker brands running from Bose and Klipsch to VMPS and SP you have significant room for preferences.

The educated consumer will not only consider the speaker, but also the electronics and the room and its acoustic charachteristics.

They will also consider what their end goal is.

Is it to have "huge" dynamics and high SPL capabilities, or is it to present the ultimate soundstage in a 3-D like way that has delicacy and resolution beyond what most can imagine.

One can argue for the dynamics of cones for the "kick you in the chest" punch that is so impressive, or one can argue for limited dispersion to create an image so clear, sharp, and palpitable that you can almost reach out and touch it.

Such is the "Audiophile Fandango" we all dance when searching for "our sound".

In fact, many speaker designs can offer "a reasonable portion" of those properties, but no speaker can "effectively" offer everything.

If you insist on hearing the exact same frequency response whether standing or sitting, then maybe VMPS might not work for you.   But when you have a speaker that does offer the same frequency spectrum from any position, then you have to use an incredible amount of room treatment (or sit 3 feet away) since those frequencies are bouncing off the walls like crazy.  If you don't, the image will be as clear as a good foggy morning.  Beautiful, but "hazy".

So speakers are like women,  Some look very nice, but you have to take them home and play with them a bit to see if you really like them, and even if someone else told you they were a "good time" (or a bad time) you may not find the same is true without seeing if they fit your "IMAGIO"

And I'll leave it up to you to figure out what an "Audiophile IMAGIO" is  

[Horsehead]

As someone who owned both, I'm not certain you could characterize one speaker as "better" than the other.  At these perfromance levels, the bottom line is personal preference.

I would NOT say, however,  that the presentations are very different however. I have said this before- good sound to me is good sound- and it will have the same characteristics- just a different means of achieving the same results.  Most of the systems that sounded really good to me at HE 2004, had a similar sound that I get at home.

The one thing that continually impresses me about the SP Tech Continuums is their ability to give you unbelievable dynamics, transient response, kick in the chest bass AND preserve incredible imaging, soundstaging, and palpable presence.  They are not your typical cones and domes in a box speaker.

[zybar]

By different presentations, I meant from a technical sense, not a musical one.

I agree with HH that the sound wasn't that different.

George

[sbcgroup1]

Is it to have "huge" dynamics and high SPL capabilities, or is it to present the ultimate soundstage in a 3-D like way that has delicacy and resolution beyond what most can imagine.

This is a great explanation that really helps me visualize everything.

Here's a good question:

Is there any way to add some mid range drivers, etc, to get that midrange "kick in the chest" to the VMPS? Perhaps adding a pair of bookshelfs to the RM 40's?

Or maybe with the RM30c playing along with the 40's (it has smaller cones) and EQ'ing everything and messing with the crossover points, etc? I prefer more of a little bit more of a "scooped" mids sound anyways. Do you guys think driving the speakers with a more potent poweramp will help give the mids more "slam"?

-Ed

[Brian Cheney]

The RM30 and RM 40 use the same components.  Because the RM30 is smaller with smaller woofers it has the "punchy" quality in the midrange you're looking for.  It lacks first octave bass.  You can either add the 215 Subwoofer (with builtin matching xover) or combine it with the RM 40 which has complementary sound quality and plenty of first octave bass.

I should point out that HH owned early versions of the RM40 with spiral tweeters.  The current FST version with the vitrified PR cones is considerably improved sonically in many ways.

[sbcgroup1]

Big B-

Will running a single RM30C with a pair RM40's be enough to cover my midrange slam duties? I'm going with the big sub as well, but that will be crossed over at around 40-50Hz or so and I'll have 2 LRC's in the back but I don't know if those will be used in my main "stereo" config.

-Ed

[Brian Cheney]

The RM40 mains with RM30 center is a common configuration that works very well, with "slam" aplenty.

[zybar]

Ed,

Where do you live?

If you are close by, you are welcome to come over and hear my RM 40's.  I also have a pair of Larger subs.

When I watched Master and Commander the other day I couldn't believe how dynamic and thunderous the system was.

I was practically ducking the canons as they were fired!

George

[ctviggen]

And George doesn't have a center channel (although I'm sure the dual larger subs help).

[sbcgroup1]

George-

I asked some people over here at work where Carmel is (work in Bergen County, NJ...Waldwick) and they said you were in the Westchester area. I just sold my place in Highland Mills, NY (by the Woodbury Commons) in Orange County, and we're getting a new place built in New Windsor, NY, right next to Cornwall. Should be done end of June, hopefully. They just put in all the power lines, etc. Now we're shacked up (along with our 3 dogs and 2 cats:)) at a friends house (a band mate...mvpproject.com) in Oradell, NJ.

Anyways, we auditioned the VMPS RM/X's at Rupesh's place in SoHo (Roop Audio Labs). However, his room wasn't treated/finished yet. Great guy! Anyways, we definitely want to buy the VMPS setup (40's, 30C, LRC's in rear, and New Larger Sub). We'd love to drop by and check out your setup, settings, etc, once we get some free time. I'd be interested in the sound differences you're getting with all your room treatment baffles, etc, to find out how it would all apply to our room. We just gotta close on the new place before we start happily spending away on audio gear:)

Later-

-Ed

[ctviggen]

If you're getting your place built, make sure they put in tons of wire for your speakers and several sets of 15/20 amp outlets for your HT room.  It's so much easier to do that when the drywall isn't up!

[sbcgroup1]

If you're getting your place built, make sure they put in tons of wire for your speakers and several sets of 15/20 amp outlets for your HT room.  It's so much easier to do that when the drywall isn't up!

Guess what? Not with these fools!

My place is being built in a development...it isn't a one off "custom" home.

Anyways, the best the electrician could do was wire for a "home theater". That means, which I found out after it was done, 16 gauge copper wire run to 5 different places around the room.

Anyways, to make a long story short, they messed that up and didn't put the wiring where they were supposed to (and ceiling outlet for my projector), and now the guy is telling me to wait until my walk thru and then they'll fix everything. It is so rediculous. I bought a $200 cable that those guys had to run thru the wall only to find it hanging out of the window in the rain. The electrician kept blaming everything on the sheetrockers and builders who are Mexican and don't speak English. What a mess. I even drew out detailed diagrams with measurements where everything was supposed to go....@#$^@#%^@#$%^@!!!

So, anyways, I am going to use that 16 gauge for the rear side LRC's which I will be hanging close to the ceiling. Up front I am going to use good freefloating cable (ie. not in-wall). So, right now I have been looking at the Canare quad star, but there's a dealer I have been talking to (John Casler) who will help me out with all the interconnects and speaker wire, etc, when I order my Earthquake Cinenovas from him.

Speaking of 20A outlets, I have been told that that can be configured at the main electrical box, where the circuit breakers are. What else would have to be done? This wasn't considered originally because we hadn't planned on going this crazy with a sound system. Now everthing's changed.

I was also told that I could get away with using two different 15A outlets on the same breaker...one for one Cinenova and the other for Cinenova#2. What do you think?

So that's that.

-Ed

[jgubman]

You can get away w/ 2 Cinenova's on a 15a circuit. I did it for years, and my brother-in-law did it w/ 3 Cinenovas for years. Just don't turn them both on at the same time, wait a second or two btwn power ups.

For a 20a circuit, all you need is 12gauge romex run from the box to the outlet. IF you have the 12gauge romex run, all you have to do is replace whatever breaker (prolly 15amp) the wire is connected to w/ a 20amp breaker. Don't try this if they ran 14gauge romex, as it presents a fire hazard.

[ctviggen]

If they ran 12 gauge cable, then you can use 20 amp (if the run isn't too long).  If they ran 14 gauge, then by code you can't use 20 amp.  I know what you mean -- I had a house built in AZ and had to go over there every day and they still made mistakes.  As for the breakers, I'd personally have one for the amp/amps and one for everything else (although I wouldn't mind sharing the second with lights, etc.).  Ideally, I think you'd have one for the amps, one for the other HT equipment, and everything else on other circuits.

I would run networking cable, too.  I just bought a Replay, and you can stream programs to another room (with another Replay).  In my case, I can do some work and run stuff through pre-existing walls, but it's a bear and will likely require some sheetrocking.

[John Casler]

This is a great explanation that really helps me visualize everything.

Here's a good question:

Is there any way to add some mid range drivers, etc, to get that midrange "kick in the chest" to the VMPS? Perhaps adding a pair of bookshelfs to the RM 40's?

Or maybe with the RM30c playing along with the 40's (it has smaller cones) and EQ'ing everything and messing with the crossover points, etc? I prefer more of a little bit more of a "scooped" mids sound anyways. Do you guys think driving the speakers with a more potent poweramp will help give the mids more "slam"?

-Ed

Hi Ed,

There is a larger answer to this and it has to do with the "slam" your looking for.  Brians assertion that placing the RM30 in the Center channel slow will do the job is certainly 100% accurate, and Zybar's comments about adding the Larger Subs is too.

But first you need to understand the goal.  

With the advent of "Home Theater" sound systems most of the "promo" was to SPLs and Massive Sub output.

HT sound has become a caricature (cartoon) of what a system might sound like that produces "realistic musical" sound.

Now with many systems performing "double duty" we all want to have some "heft", but I certainly would encourage you to temper that with accurate musicality

The "slam you in the chest" component capability is "only" accurate for very specific types of music (as in amplified rock concerts) and very loud movies.

If you want your system to sound like a rock concert, then add some LARGER subs and they will put you there front row and make your ears bleed and double as a CPR system in the slam department.

For HT a pair of Larger Subs will satisfy all but the most deaf Bass Head.

So the point is, that 85-95% of your serious "musical" listening will not need any additional reinforcement if your goal is realism. (unless you want the caricature of music)

Go to a live performance, and unless you are in a small club within feet of the kickdrum, you will not feel the beat in your stomach or chest.

Of course it is impressive to play the Kodo Drum cuts and impress your friends with sonic impact, but does anyone really "seriously" listen to that stuff longer than a couple minutes?

So while many are searching for the impressiveness of "sonic impact", I might suggest a more important goal is "accuracy" in proportion and tone.

As I sit in front of a "lonely pair" of 626Rs with a LARGER sub and play Bella Fleck, the impact is notable and realistic.  My couch shakes my body feels the kick drum and my pant leg flaps, and this is the smallest VMPS speaker.

Get yourself those RM40s (maybe add the sonic director tweak) a Larger or two and get ready to hear some serious sonic reproduction.

Make sure and treat your room well and get clean source and program material and you will be a very happy camper (even if you do play the Kodo/Japanese drum cuts all day long)

And yes, VMPS will "light up" with loads of good clean power.  Most all speakers will.

But then again, you have to know, I'm very biased to my preferences.  

You have to firmly establish and follow yours  

I would suggest that in your auditions that you look simply for "realism" (for you) in the sweet spot.  

Low Freqs are good, impact is fun, but in the end if you are Sittin on the Dock of the Bay with Otis, enjoying the 1812 Overture with Seijii Ozawa, Kralling with Diana, or Rocking hard with Santana, the idea is to hear either 1) what you like, or 2) what was really there.

Hopefully they are the same thing.